02-15-2013 08:15 AM
So where are the examples of trickle down working out for everyone?
Around a year or so ago, I started a thread titled "So, when is trickle down econ. going to work?".
One response that I remember best was that it already has worked for those who advocate it. The disparity between rich and poor and the number of billlionaires have both grown and continue to grow since the Reagan era's "voodoo".
02-15-2013 09:25 AM
HD will be fine, They just need to recover from pumping their production up too high. They expanded too much around the time of the 100th. HDs last a long time ,, when you couldnt sell em for what you had it them to trade up ,, people started keeping them longer.
I actually hope so. And I hope TMC will finally build a bike I want--they came really close the Street Rod version of the V-Rod. But if you watch the market you'll see there's been a LOT of softening of the pricing of used H-Ds. You can no longer sell a 10 or 15 year old ANYTHING H-D for close to what you paid for it. Mid and late 90's bikes are now going for much more rational numbers.
Harley's BIGGEST problem has been the aging of its customer base, which is fairly saturated now. You know, middle-aged wannabe doctors and dentists who get a tat and put on a do-rag. Actually know of one group that had their bikes trucked from Texas to just outside of Sturgis where they were unloaded, they put on their gear, and road into town as if they had iron-butted it all the way!
Harley's attempt to get at the sport market failed because they wouldn't support and push Buell they way they should, and the Harley dealers didn't know what the fuck to do with the Buells they had on the floor.
Buells were the cheapest, fastest and best handling Harleys you could buy. But H-D didn't know how to market them.
Harley flooded the market with bikes that last forever. Japan flooded the market with high tech bikes that tend to age out and die. Their customers want the latest greatest and fastest. I rode a lot for 10 years and had a couple harleys. I really loved to ride and was fortunate enough to have been able to put on a lot of miles. I sold my bikes when the market was starting to slip. I was cool with what i got back out. 15 grand for 10 years of riding your ass all over the country wasnt a bad price to pay. Today if i wanted to pick up another scoot , i would prolly find a used roadking. A evo one would be my choice. Burns regular, cheap, and every bit as much a harley as a new one from a riders point of view. Harleys evolve but not at the pace of japanese motorcycles. The coolest bike in the parking lot typically is some shovel that a guy tricked out. New just doesnt count at much ,, its more about the tradition and brand. Whats nice is that the cost has come way down on being able to afford a harley. I think thats is really good for the brand. No one totally junks out a harley,,, the parts just end up on other projects. HD will just rightsize the company. They are fun to ride. As for the people putting the bikes on the trailers, I can see why they do it. Riding crosscountry on a motorcycle is very demanding of the riders and the machines. Not everyone is willing to get on the things and ride them two and three days away from home and knowing they had to ride them two or three days back home. Being in the truck with the bikes in the trailer is dry comfortable and easy. Get there and then ride. One breaks or goes down, load it on the trailer and bring it home.
The best thing harley ever did was start HOG. It connected the brand, the products and the customers into major marketing mojo. Harleys are a bit of a cult thing. If i tried to explain it you wouldnt understand.
What is it with Harley owners that they can't deal with any other brand without COMPLETELY dissing them? Can't even say "Harleys are for a particular type of riding. If it's not for you, it's not for you." No wonder the dealers couldn't market Buell. The Harley "attitude" drives away other riders.
Durability is NOT an issue with Japanese bikes. That's a HOG myth to justify owning worst power-to-weight ratio and worst braking in the industry. In fact, when touring bikes have been compared by Cycle World and Motorcyclist, Harley's break-down rate is far greater than any of the Big 4 from Japan or BMW's. This "Let's Pretend" you cannot ride a Gold Wing, an FJR, a Suzuki Boulevard or V-Strom, or a Kawa Concourse as comfortably and more reliably across the country as a Harley is just nonsense.
A mid-late 90's Road King goes for $5500 now, not $15000. The Harley market HAS softened as the customer base has aged. That's not an opinion, that's data, and the drop in prices in the used market reflect that. Harley has cut back its production and had to lay off workers. It's not going down, at least not anytime soon, but without a change, those golden years from the mid 80's to the mid 2000's are over.
BMW realized the way the wind was blowing back in the early 90's and re-made itself as a company that not only makes durable bikes, but makes them fast and good-handling as well. BMW went from stodgy to high-end performance while maintaining the BMW "mystique".
Japanese bikes only "age out" to those who MUST have the fastest and most powerful. Yeah, it's crazy to get on a 400lb machine that makes 160 to 180 hp. I remember when Yamaha's YZ750 2-stroke triple race bike was considered INSANE to weigh in the mid 300's and make 135hp. But there are lots and lots of bikes out there 10, 20 and 30 years old still running that aren't from TMC.
There really only are two bikes suitable for long haul two up touring. Electra glides and gold wings. The rest lack the hard bag capacity to haul what you need for extended touring. The BMW full boat touring bike has really small bags.
ElectroGlide saddle bags are too narrow to be useful and the trunk is smaller than it looks. My FJR's saddle bags have more usable cap than the 'Glides and the matching aftermarket Givi trunk is bigger than the 'Glide's as well.
The Kawasaki Voyager has a HUGE capacity. Plus, if you REALLY need a lot of shit, any of them will pull a trailer.
l If you have to pula trailer ,, you might as well take your car. we did a ton of long haul touring on an electra glide. I had a 01 classic with lower fairings, cruise and a big luggage rack on the tourpack. I had the bag liners for both saddle bags , and the tourpack so you could just grab them and haul the stuff into the hotel room. I also had the expanable soft luggage that was made to fit the luggage rack. It was a sweet touring bike. We used to go out on the road and do 7000 mile runs with it and pretty well could just stay on the road as long as we liked. We would run like 600 miles a day when we were really hitting it hard on roads were you could slam down the miles. In the mountains you would only runs 400 or so due to mountain roads with lots of twisties. For the most part you only saw wings and glides out on the road when the weather turned the least big sour. Sport bikers are for the most part wussies when it comes to traveling on a bike. They all hung around the pickle patch talkin more than riding.
I never pulled a trailer with a bike. But comparing touring bikes and sport bikes in bad weather is like bitching that a Covette owner is a pussy for not driving in the snow while you sail through it in your 4x4. It's just inane.
But if you want to do adventure touring, full-boat dressers don't work because they just suck on dirt and gravel roads, they are dangerous above a walking speed, especially with interlocked brakes that always apply the front. If you have ABS and non-interlocked brakes you can manage but they still suck next to adventure-tourers. Full-boats are for interstates in the US and Canada.
Full boat touring bikes are for touring. If you cant ride a dresser on a twisty mountain road , you prolly should stick to the car. Typically on any long tour you are going to ride all kinds of roads in all kinds of weather. Have you ever been 4 days away from home on a motorcycle in your entire life? You sound like you are just swinging in the dark at somthing you have little or no experience with
02-15-2013 01:58 PM
Ladies and Gentlemen:
You now can see why motorcyclists cannot stand Harley bikers. They ride shitty, overpriced, overweight, underpowered, undersprung, underbraked, under-reliable, under-saddle-bagged turtle-slow atavichrons and rant and rave at anyone who doesn't think they are the best bikes in the world.
And they have an excuse and answer for everything. Any appeal a Harley may possibly have for me vanishes as soon as I realize the fellow owners are all irrational buttheads like Timkeys.
I spent a lot of posts defending Harley's anti-dumping protection, heaping cautious praise on The Motor Company and Timkeys, like typical Harley riders trashes me anyway.
Here's the other reason riders of Japanese and European bikes hate Harley riders: Riders wave to other riders regardless of brand. Harley riders only wave to other Harley riders. That's it in a nutshell.
BTW, Harley repair and maintenance parts are ungodly expensive compared to other bikes...and you need a lot of them!
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