The Political Party

[moogerfooger]

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Used2BMarkoh wrote:

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moogerfooger wrote:

one can never be alone on the cosmic scale, but you touched on an important point.  it isnt about Aha! See! no god needed, is't about the universe without the jewish god is exactly the same as the universe with it, as you so aptly pointed out in your previous post

Ah, no, don't get carried away by the fact I granted a debate point. You cannot possibly compare universes with and without God, so this is really a null claim, it means nothing.

about the tradition in christianity of confessign to another person. confessign to god is the same as confessing to one's self.

No, again, you're missing the point even within your context. I pointed out that external confession is NOT the same as confessing to self. And I pointed out that the very act of confessing is good for the confessor. That does not mean confession has no external value. Example: You lie to your wife. A first step is that you admit to yourself, yes, it really was lie. You tell a co-worker, and just saying it out loud makes you realize you have to apologize to her. So finally you apologize to your wife. All steps had value, and limited value does not negate greater value. That's just a bogus inference you're drawing.

God seems to be irrelevant,

'Seems' is the operative word here. I understand the feeling, but I THINK it's wrong.

if there were some sort of deitiy, what would be his motivation for even creating a sentient world?

Even the word 'motivation' suggests some external pressure, so that can't apply to the first cause.  So I'd have to say this is simply beyond us.

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markoh: You cannot possibly compare universes with and without God. 

sure you can. well maybe not you, but for billions of people on planet earth, there is no christian god.  their lives are the same as those who assert the christian god. they may not assert a god at all, or different god's with different mythologies. these are easy to compair, and,  as it turns out, it simply doesnt matter what god is believed in, no matter what creation myth is subscribe to, the world is the same.  

markoh: I pointed out that external confession is NOT the same as confessing to self. 

no you simply asserted that. the external value is limited to actual human relationships. no one knows whether confessing to god helps through direct intervention, because no one can prove that god does anything, ever. 

markoh: 'Seems' is the operative word here. I understand the feeling, but I THINK it's wrong.

so then there is a equal chance that one of us is dead wrong.  we could be both wrong, and that would be just fine with me. you? 

[Used2BMarkoh]

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moogerfooger wrote:

sure you can. well maybe not you, but for billions of people on planet earth, there is no christian god.  their lives are the same as those who assert the christian god. they may not assert a god at all, or different god's with different mythologies. these are easy to compair, and,  as it turns out, it simply doesnt matter what god is believed in, no matter what creation myth is subscribe to, the world is the same.  

It occurred to me you might mean this - that it makes no difference if you believe or not. But that's quite different from making no difference whether God exists or not. It makes no practical difference whether I believe in dark matter or not, but lots of cosmologists say it holds the galaxies together.

so then there is a equal chance that one of us is dead wrong.  we could be both wrong, and that would be just fine with me. you? 

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Eh, no, I just try to argue from neutral ground. I've had plenty of doubts about various particulars of christianity, even the religion as a whole, but I don't have any real doubt that there is a creator of some sort. To suppose there is no creator is to negate reason itself, and I'm not willing to go there.  As I've said, I believe denying a creator would be to deny my own observable humanity.

[moogerfooger]

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Used2BMarkoh wrote:

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moogerfooger wrote:

sure you can. well maybe not you, but for billions of people on planet earth, there is no christian god.  their lives are the same as those who assert the christian god. they may not assert a god at all, or different god's with different mythologies. these are easy to compair, and,  as it turns out, it simply doesnt matter what god is believed in, no matter what creation myth is subscribe to, the world is the same.  

It occurred to me you might mean this - that it makes no difference if you believe or not. But that's quite different from making no difference whether God exists or not. It makes no practical difference whether I believe in dark matter or not, but lots of cosmologists say it holds the galaxies together.

so then there is a equal chance that one of us is dead wrong.  we could be both wrong, and that would be just fine with me. you? 

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Eh, no, I just try to argue from neutral ground. I've had plenty of doubts about various particulars of christianity, even the religion as a whole, but I don't have any real doubt that there is a creator of some sort. To suppose there is no creator is to negate reason itself, and I'm not willing to go there.  As I've said, I believe denying a creator would be to deny my own observable humanity.

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so, for the sake of argument, lets suppose that the world is just as it is, with the exception of, no jewish christian or muslim religion.  what would be different? 

[Used2BMarkoh]

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moogerfooger wrote:

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so, for the sake of argument, lets suppose that the world is just as it is, with the exception of, no jewish christian or muslim religion.  what would be different? 

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I'd say that's kind of like supposing what modern astronomy would be like with the exception of no telescope.  I'd say there would be no modern astronomy without the telescope.

Look, God can surely keep quiet if he wants to.  That may be frustrating, but it's not grounds for asserting he doesn't exist.  Our selves and our world cannot possibly have gotten here by themselves, there has to be some super-natural layer.  That just seems like 2+2=4 to me.

[Rudolf von Hag…]

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moogerfooger wrote:

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so, for the sake of argument, lets suppose that the world is just as it is, with the exception of, no jewish christian or muslim religion.  what would be different? 

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 all those folks gone would solve most of the problem this world has

- no more war with religious background

- overpopulation

- about 3-4 billion less who have a mental issue

- the street would look cleaner

- the production of woolen underware would stagnate

- less religious fecal in the wastewater

- we could use the temples for real entertainment, such as karaoke bars

- no more backwards who ring my door bell

- the average intelligence of the world population would raise by dozen percent

- no religious nonsense in forums

- no crosses who destroy the aestethics of the landscape

- no stupid people on the street anymore with megaphones

I could go on and on... in the mean time I think when all those dullard would not exist anymore tomorrow, then almost all problems of this planet would be solved simply because those fools are gone.

[onelife]

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Used2BMarkoh wrote:

Our selves and our world cannot possibly have gotten here by themselves, there has to be some super-natural layer.  That just seems like 2+2=4 to me.

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We are here but why does the explanation of how we got here have to be super-natural? Why does it have to be "God"?

Why is it that when humans cannot comprehend something in nature the explanation has always been a magic version of ourselves that is all knowing and all powerful?

[StompboxMan]

Praise and bless the Lord Jesus Christ every day and night to save your life! Have mercy Lord Jesus on all who do not believe in you!

[onelife]

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

[Komandi]

Markoh-in-a-nutshell: I can't picture the world as not being magical, so it must be magical. Hell of an argument... for a six-year old.

[moogerfooger]

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Rudolf von Hagenwil wrote:

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moogerfooger wrote:

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so, for the sake of argument, lets suppose that the world is just as it is, with the exception of, no jewish christian or muslim religion.  what would be different? 

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 all those folks gone would solve most of the problem this world has

- no more war with religious background

- overpopulation

- about 3-4 billion less who have a mental issue

- the street would look cleaner

- the production of woolen underware would stagnate

- less religious fecal in the wastewater

- we could use the temples for real entertainment, such as karaoke bars

- no more backwards who ring my door bell

- the average intelligence of the world population would raise by dozen percent

- no religious nonsense in forums

- no crosses who destroy the aestethics of the landscape

- no stupid people on the street anymore with megaphones

I could go on and on... in the mean time I think when all those dullard would not exist anymore tomorrow, then almost all problems of this planet would be solved simply because those fools are gone.

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you're a wise man rudy 

[Used2BMarkoh]

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onelife wrote:

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Used2BMarkoh wrote:

Our selves and our world cannot possibly have gotten here by themselves, there has to be some super-natural layer.  That just seems like 2+2=4 to me.

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We are here but why does the explanation of how we got here have to be super-natural?

If nature is not sufficient to explain nature, there must be something other than nature. Pick a different word if mine gives you the willies.

Why is it that when humans cannot comprehend something in nature the explanation has always been a magic version of ourselves that is all knowing and all powerful?

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Feel free to suggest something else, if you have a better idea. For me, it's sort of a twist on the democracy quote: Christianity is the craziest explanation there is - except for all the others. Religion is weird, but rational. So take your pick - strange, or impossible.

[onelife]

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Used2BMarkoh wrote:

Feel free to suggest something else, if you have a better idea. For me, it's sort of a twist on the democracy quote: Christianity is the craziest explanation there is - except for all the others. Religion is weird, but rational. So take your pick - strange, or impossible.

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 I did that but I think you missed it - see post #503 in this thread.

[Used2BMarkoh]

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onelife wrote:

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Used2BMarkoh wrote:

Feel free to suggest something else, if you have a better idea. For me, it's sort of a twist on the democracy quote: Christianity is the craziest explanation there is - except for all the others. Religion is weird, but rational. So take your pick - strange, or impossible.

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 I did that but I think you missed it - see post #503 in this thread.

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I'd put that under the general "we are god" heading, which doesn't work for me.  No, the world was already here when I first became aware, so the explanation lies outside of me.

[onelife]

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Used2BMarkoh wrote:

I'd put that under the general "we are god" heading, which doesn't work for me.  No, the world was already here when I first became aware, so the explanation lies outside of me.

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I can accept and respect that as your perspective although you and I would probably differ in determining the point when you "first became aware."

I do believe that "we" are this thing we call God just as we are all capable of becoming Buddha and that the second coming of Christ is self realization.

What do you think happens when our awareness is released from the confines of our physical bodies? Do you think it is possible to achieve this state before we die?

[sdelsolray]

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yumpy wrote:

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sdelsolray wrote:

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yumpy wrote:

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sdelsolray wrote:

This is your weekly reminder that Stompboxman is full of shit - completely full of shit. The old man lies, cheats, obfuscates, doges, weaves and masturbates his obsolete, infantile and primitive religion all over the internet.

Suggestion: Ignore the little shit.

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take your own advice, pussnuts.

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Another angry and creepy old man speaks. It's time for you to go to your room and play with your Jesus action figure set. Try channeling your hate, bile and pain through them.

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naw, i'm not angry at all. 

just throwing some back at ya. 

the vitriol against christians is incredible, 

since, most of you, seem not to have a basic understanding of christianity. 

i guess fearing the unknown is quite strong, in some people. 

shit, i hear more verse spouting from non believers than believers. mostly misinterpreted and out of context. 

btw, i am NOT Jesus, so don't expect me to act like Him. i am human, with all the frailties and shortcomings that go along with it.

lol!! some people are lucky i ain't Him. turn your ass into a toad, i would. or trainset or even rudy.

you have a nice day!

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Sure you're angry. Plus you're old. That makes you an angry old man.

Ah yes, the mere assertion and first grade level Christian apologetic that atheists do not "have a basic understanding of christianity." Bullshit. Atheists usually have a better understanding of the claims of Christianity than do the theistic adherents to that religion. What is different is that they do not rely on the irrational Christian Apologetics that the devoted do. Take you for example. Then again, don't take you for example.

Your understanding of the Christian Dogma is quite provincial, limited and anthropocentric. I'm not surprised at all. Were you indoctrinated as a child? Why are you addicted to such an obsolete, irrational and infantile religion?  We all can see that your are fucked up.  Tell us why you are fucked up.  Tell us why the Christian religion has anything to do with it.

Again, go to your room and play with your Jesus action figure set. You're not that important. None of us are.

[yumpy]

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onelife wrote:

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna

Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama

Rama Rama Hare Hare

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copy right violation. 

[yumpy]

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sdelsolray wrote:

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yumpy wrote:

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sdelsolray wrote:

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yumpy wrote:

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sdelsolray wrote:

This is your weekly reminder that Stompboxman is full of shit - completely full of shit. The old man lies, cheats, obfuscates, doges, weaves and masturbates his obsolete, infantile and primitive religion all over the internet.

Suggestion: Ignore the little shit.

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take your own advice, pussnuts.

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Another angry and creepy old man speaks. It's time for you to go to your room and play with your Jesus action figure set. Try channeling your hate, bile and pain through them.

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naw, i'm not angry at all. 

just throwing some back at ya. 

the vitriol against christians is incredible, 

since, most of you, seem not to have a basic understanding of christianity. 

i guess fearing the unknown is quite strong, in some people. 

shit, i hear more verse spouting from non believers than believers. mostly misinterpreted and out of context. 

btw, i am NOT Jesus, so don't expect me to act like Him. i am human, with all the frailties and shortcomings that go along with it.

lol!! some people are lucky i ain't Him. turn your ass into a toad, i would. or trainset or even rudy.

you have a nice day!

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Sure you're angry. Plus you're old. That makes you an angry old man.

Ah yes, the mere assertion and first grade level Christian apologetic that atheists do not "have a basic understanding of christianity." Bullshit. Atheists usually have a better understanding of the claims of Christianity than do the theistic adherents to that religion. What is different is that they do not rely on the irrational Christian Apologetics that the devoted do. Take you for example. Then again, don't take you for example.

Your understanding of the Christian Dogma is quite provincial, limited and anthropocentric. I'm not surprised at all. Were you indoctrinated as a child? Why are you addicted to such an obsolete, irrational and infantile religion?  We all can see that your are fucked up.  Tell us why you are fucked up.  Tell us why the Christian religion has anything to do with it.

Again, go to your room and play with your Jesus action figure set. You're not that important. None of us are.

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wow, u mad? ego-centric for sure, tho. 

i can tolerate your non-belief, if you keep it to your rants in the family basement.

it comes down to, i know something you don't.

but, here, call these guys and start your own!! i'm sure you could, for a nominal fee for bill maher.

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/03/atheist-church-sunday-assembly-islington

it's the latest trendy thing! if you can't beat em' join em'! 

[sdelsolray]

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yumpy wrote: it comes down to, i know something you don't. 

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Just not in anyway you can demonstrate. Your claimed personal revelation/special frame of reference is just another bullshit Christian Apologetic.

[Daryl Flynn]

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StompboxMan wrote:

Praise and bless the Lord Jesus Christ every day and night to save your life! Have mercy Lord Jesus on all who do not believe in you!

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If you're going to do the fake Christian thing, at least try and debate someone. Put some effort into it, shit troll, who's thread thrives simply because you can argue religion endlessly, and some of these guys will do just that.

[Daryl Flynn]

Noticed how not one atheist could give me even a simple explanation of why altruism exists.