The Political Party

[Kramerguy]

Seriously, It's faulty logic and apples to oranges.

Cars are designed to transport people, and while dangerous, that was not and never was the intent of designing it.  It was designed as a technology to ultimately better society and commerce.

Guns were designed for only one purpose:  To kill, damage, destroy, or obliterate whatever is in the path of the bullet it fires.  It has no useful purpose to society, other than to kill a person or people.  We use them to fight wars (kill), to hunt (kill), and to shoot targets and inanimate objects (damage, destroy, obliterate).

No car was ever designed to do any of those things, with exception to tanks and deathrace 2000 cars, both which are not legal for civilians to own.

/Thread

/Comparisons

/Debate

[Bowe]

cars are also registered,
require a licence and a formal test,
require different licences and tests depending on what type of vehicle,
and require insurance

[rbstern]

Cars and guns are machines.  Humans invent machines to do things that would otherwise be harder to do without the benefit of the machine.

Cars followed trains, which followed wagons, which followed chariots.

Guns followed bows, which followed spears, which followed clubs.

Machines can be used for good or evil.  The same can be said for nearly any machine.  The simplest machine, a lever, can be used to rescue a trapped person.  It can also be used to roll a sleeping homeless guy onto a subway track, in front of an oncoming train.  The lever is neither good nor evil.  The person who uses it defines the good or evil of the act by their intention.

Assigning moral value to the machine is a misdirected argument. 

An AR15 in the hands of Adam Lanza has no more purity of purpose than the revolver the lady in Walton County, GA used to save herself and her kids a couple of weeks ago. 

[Telecruiser]

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rbstern wrote:

Cars and guns are machines.  Humans invent machines to do things that would otherwise be harder to do without the benefit of the machine.

Cars followed trains, which followed wagons, which followed chariots.

Guns followed bows, which followed spears, which followed clubs.

Machines can be used for good or evil.  The same can be said for nearly any machine.  The simplest machine, a lever, can be used to rescue a trapped person.  It can also be used to roll a sleeping homeless guy onto a subway track, in front of an oncoming train.  The lever is neither good nor evil.  The person who uses it defines the good or evil of the act by their intention.

Assigning moral value to the machine is a misdirected argument. 

An AR15 in the hands of Adam Lanza has no more purity of purpose than the revolver the lady in Walton County, GA used to save herself and her kids a couple of weeks ago. 

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Exactly what myself and others have been saying. Well said!!!

[Zeopold]

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rbstern wrote: Cars followed trains, which followed wagons, which followed chariots.

---

Which were designed to...?

rbstern wrote: Guns followed bows, which followed spears, which followed clubs.

Which were designed to...?

[guido61]

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rbstern wrote:

An AR15 in the hands of Adam Lanza has no more purity of purpose than the revolver the lady in Walton County, GA used to save herself and her kids a couple of weeks ago. 

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So if a revolver that can only shoot 10 rounds has the same purity of purpose as a semi-automatic rifle that can shoot 100, then why do we need both?  If they are both designed to do the same thing, but in the wrong hands only ONE of them can kill 2 dozen kids in a few seconds, then why not ban that one so it doesn't so easily fall in the the wrong hands?

[Telecruiser]

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Zeopold wrote:

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rbstern wrote: Cars followed trains, which followed wagons, which followed chariots.

---

Which were designed to...?

rbstern wrote: Guns followed bows, which followed spears, which followed clubs.

Which were designed to...?

---

All the major gun manufacturers make guns specifically designed to bring down game for hunters. When that same gun is used by someone to murder a human being it is no longer being used according to the intent of the original design.

[slodge]

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rbstern wrote:

Cars and guns are machines.  Humans invent machines to do things that would otherwise be harder to do without the benefit of the machine.

Cars followed trains, which followed wagons, which followed chariots.

Guns followed bows, which followed spears, which followed clubs.

Machines can be used for good or evil.  The same can be said for nearly any machine.  The simplest machine, a lever, can be used to rescue a trapped person.  It can also be used to roll a sleeping homeless guy onto a subway track, in front of an oncoming train.  The lever is neither good nor evil.  The person who uses it defines the good or evil of the act by their intention.

Assigning moral value to the machine is a misdirected argument. 

An AR15 in the hands of Adam Lanza has no more purity of purpose than the revolver the lady in Walton County, GA used to save herself and her kids a couple of weeks ago. 

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Nobody's assigning a moral value to a machine.

They're assigning a moral value to the purpose for which the machine was created.

[slodge]

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Telecruiser wrote:

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Zeopold wrote:

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rbstern wrote: Cars followed trains, which followed wagons, which followed chariots.

---

Which were designed to...?

rbstern wrote: Guns followed bows, which followed spears, which followed clubs.

Which were designed to...?

---

All the major gun manufacturers make guns specifically designed to bring down game for hunters. When that same gun is used by someone to murder a human being it is no longer being used according to the intent of the original design.

---

Correct. That's why nobody is suggesting a ban on hunting rifles.

All the major gun manufacturers, however, also make guns designed to bring down humans. These are the ones people are talking about regulating.

[guido61]

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Telecruiser wrote:

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All the major gun manufacturers make guns specifically designed to bring down game for hunters. When that same gun is used by someone to murder a human being it is no longer being used according to the intent of the original design.

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And that's the only reason every gun is designed?  Are you seriously going to try and argue this point?

Nobody is much interested in banning hunting rifles.

[sporter]

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rbstern wrote: 

Machines can be used for good or evil.  The same can be said for nearly any machine.  The simplest machine, a lever, can be used to rescue a trapped person.  It can also be used to roll a sleeping homeless guy onto a subway track, in front of an oncoming train.  The lever is neither good nor evil.  The person who uses it defines the good or evil of the act by their intention.

---

Everybody knows this, but there are some inanimate devices that are considered too dangerous to be in widespread use by the general public because there are evil, irresponsible, and just plain stupid people out there. Public safety is a concept the NRA seems to miss. In advocating rights, they forget that MY right to live in a safe environment is as important as arming every Tom **bleep** and Harry.

[Telecruiser]

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slodge wrote:

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Telecruiser wrote:

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Zeopold wrote:

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rbstern wrote: Cars followed trains, which followed wagons, which followed chariots.

---

Which were designed to...?

rbstern wrote: Guns followed bows, which followed spears, which followed clubs.

Which were designed to...?

---

All the major gun manufacturers make guns specifically designed to bring down game for hunters. When that same gun is used by someone to murder a human being it is no longer being used according to the intent of the original design.

---

Correct. That's why nobody is suggesting a ban on hunting rifles.

All the major gun manufacturers, however, also make guns designed to bring down humans. These are the ones people are talking about regulating.

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The AR rifle platform is used across the US to eradicate varmints, pests and out of control populations of destructive animals.

[thankyou]

telecruiser wrote:

All the major gun manufacturers make guns specifically designed to bring down game for hunters. When that same gun is used by someone to murder a human being it is no longer being used according to the intent of the original design.

---

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So, the M16 was designed to bring down game.  OK.  I wasn't aware of that.  Do people have the heads of Viet Cong mounted on their walls?

[Zeopold]

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Telecruiser wrote:

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Zeopold wrote:

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rbstern wrote: Cars followed trains, which followed wagons, which followed chariots.

---

Which were designed to...?

rbstern wrote: Guns followed bows, which followed spears, which followed clubs.

Which were designed to...?

---

All the major gun manufacturers make guns specifically designed to bring down game for hunters. When that same gun is used by someone to murder a human being it is no longer being used according to the intent of the original design.

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I think that if you examine trends in hunting arms design, they tend to evolve from combat arms. Happy to stand corrected on this, but I've seen this point made by several posters round here that know far more about the subject than I do.

[Telecruiser]

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thankyou wrote:

telecruiser wrote:

All the major gun manufacturers make guns specifically designed to bring down game for hunters. When that same gun is used by someone to murder a human being it is no longer being used according to the intent of the original design.

---

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So, the M16 was designed to bring down game.  OK.  I wasn't aware of that.  Do people have the heads of Viet Cong mounted on their walls?

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All guns can be used to kill human beings regardless of their original design intent. I get it. If the AR rifle platform, with literally millions in circulation, was really the problem wouldn't it seem to reason that these mass shootings with an AR rifle would be happening on a daily basis? I mean they are killing machines aren't they?

[fretmess]

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Telecruiser wrote:

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thankyou wrote:

telecruiser wrote:

All the major gun manufacturers make guns specifically designed to bring down game for hunters. When that same gun is used by someone to murder a human being it is no longer being used according to the intent of the original design.

---

---

So, the M16 was designed to bring down game.  OK.  I wasn't aware of that.  Do people have the heads of Viet Cong mounted on their walls?

---

All guns can be used to kill human beings regardless of their original design intent. I get it. If the AR rifle platform, with literally millions in circulation, was really the problem wouldn't it seem to reason that these mass shootings with an AR rifle would be happening on a daily basis? I mean they are killing machines aren't they?

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Ruger likes to call them 'Modern Sporting Rifles'.

[guido61]

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Telecruiser wrote:

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All guns can be used to kill human beings regardless of their original design intent. I get it. If the AR rifle platform, with literally millions in circulation, was really the problem wouldn't it seem to reason that these mass shootings with an AR rifle would be happening on a daily basis? I mean they are killing machines aren't they?

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You're running out of argument, Tele.  This is absurd. 

[rbstern]

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slodge wrote:

Nobody's assigning a moral value to a machine.

They're assigning a moral value to the purpose for which the machine was created.

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The AR-15 was originally conceived of as a defensive/patrol firearm for the Air Force to use to protect missle silos. 

[Telecruiser]

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guido61 wrote:

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Telecruiser wrote:

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All guns can be used to kill human beings regardless of their original design intent. I get it. If the AR rifle platform, with literally millions in circulation, was really the problem wouldn't it seem to reason that these mass shootings with an AR rifle would be happening on a daily basis? I mean they are killing machines aren't they?

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You're running out of argument, Tele.  This is absurd. 

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No, you are running out of ways to respond other than pointing accusations at me.

[rbstern]

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sporter wrote:

Everybody knows this, but there are some inanimate devices that are considered too dangerous to be in widespread use by the general public because there are evil, irresponsible, and just plain stupid people out there. Public safety is a concept the NRA seems to miss. In advocating rights, they forget that MY right to live in a safe environment is as important as arming every Tom **bleep** and Harry.

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Living in any society, you are natually a cohabitant with people of different cultures, intelligence, wisdom and morals.  There is risk simply in existing in such a place, and no system of laws can change that.

You have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  You don't have a right to a safe environment.  No such guarantee is made in our laws.  If that were true, every person currently living in a public housing project would have an actionable claim against the federal government.

If the only way to create what you preceive to be a safe environment is to take away the rights of others, you are not entitled to what you perceive you are entitled to.

The NRA gets public safety in a way some illogical folks can't seem to grasp:  For over a one hundred years, NRA has tried to teach people about SAFE gun handling, which is a far more realistic approach to gun safety than trying to pretend there are no guns, there shouldn't be any guns, or that our society can exist without guns

 Sorry, maybe a **bleep** deal, but just as you don't have a right to not be offended, you don't have a right to

disarm law abiding people in pursuit of what you think will make you safe.