The Political Party

[Leon1242]

I understand that the numerator in a time signature is the Beats per Measure however I am a'little lost on the denominator, I was always told that the denominator of a Time Sig is "what note gets the beat." But what exactly does that mean? Does that mean that every beat is a quarter note if the denominator is 4? Does that mean if the sig is in 4/2 that every second half note gets the beat? Im sorry if this is a really noobish question, I am kind of new to music theory and I am learning through information on the web. So any other help/suggestion/tips is greatly appreciated. I thank all of you who take the time to help me learn this stuff, it can get really confusing when you learn this stuff on your own.. lol

Note: Aaaaaaand I just realized I am totally in the wrong category right now, I don't even know how I ended up in the "Political Party." My bad guys, this new format is really hard to get the hang of.

[Opposite Day · Accepted solution]

Yeah, 4/2 would be four half notes per measure, which I've never seen. The numerator can be anything, but the denominator will be some multiple of 2 (4, 8, 16, etc), unless its 1, which I've also never seen.

[shredhead7 · Accepted solution]

The numerator is the number of beats, the denominator is the division of those beats.  The denominator is always divisible by 2.

So a denominator of 2 means half notes, 4 = quarter notes, 8 = eigth notes, 16 = 16th notes, etc.

The top is how many of the bottom there are in a measure.

So 4/4 is four quarter notes in a measure.  3/4 is 3 quarter notes in a measure.  6/8 would be six eigth notes per measure.  The difference between 3/4 and 6/8, which is mathmatically the same thing, is that 3/4 is the beat is clapped as quarter notes, so you count it 1 and 2 and 3 and, 1 and 2 and 3 and.  6/8 on the other hand, is counted as two groups of triplets, or a swing feel.  Thus it has two beats, 1 and a, 2 and a.  The same applies to 4/4 vs 12/8.  9/8 is tricky as Middle Eastern music would count it as 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 (simililarly, 10/8, 11/8, 13/8) and bands such as Dream Theater might play it 'straight' like that.  But other times they will play 12/8 (a triplet feel) and play a "short" measure and throw in a 9/8 with a triplet feel. 

For odd times, you could have 7/8.  This is usually counted 1,2,3,4,5,6,sev (if you count seven, then you actually have two syllables, and two beats, so count seven as sev).  The difference in counting 8ths and quarters is that with quarters you add the word and on the 8ths.  So Pink Floyd's "money" is 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and Sev and. 

[Leon1242]

Opposite Day and Shredhead, you guys helped a lot. I especially liked that Shredhead used Pink Floyd as a reference, that's my favorite band. So thank you so much for that! But I have yet another question, could you kind of mix the notes together so to speak? What I mean by that is if the sig is 4/4 couldn't you still use Quarter notes, eightnotes and maybe sixteenth notes all in one bar as long as they don't exceed 4 beats? for example, could I use 4 eighth notes (=2 beats) and then 2 quarters to take up the remaining two beats? or would that go against music theory? Granted, that would sound really awkward and strange, but im just trying to make sure I have a decent understand of it.

[thankyou · Accepted solution]

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Leon1242 wrote:

Opposite Day and Shredhead, you guys helped a lot. I especially liked that Shredhead used Pink Floyd as a reference, that's my favorite band. So thank you so much for that! But I have yet another question, could you kind of mix the notes together so to speak? What I mean by that is couldn't you still use Quarter notes, eightnotes and maybe sixteenth notes all in one bar as long as they don't exceed 4 beats? for example, could I use 4 eighth notes (=2 beats) and then 2 quarters to take up the remaining two beats? or would that go against music theory? Granted, that would sound really awkward and strange, but im just trying to make sure I have a decent understand of it.

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It's all supposed to add up, but many songs contain a measure of two of a different time signature when the math doesn't work with what the songwriter had in mind.  John Lennon did this, though I don't think he wrote the charts for his song.  Sir George Martin probably had a lot to do with that.

[Sloppy Santa]

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Leon1242 wrote:

Opposite Day and Shredhead, you guys helped a lot. I especially liked that Shredhead used Pink Floyd as a reference, that's my favorite band. So thank you so much for that! But I have yet another question, could you kind of mix the notes together so to speak? What I mean by that is if the sig is 4/4 couldn't you still use Quarter notes, eightnotes and maybe sixteenth notes all in one bar as long as they don't exceed 4 beats? for example, could I use 4 eighth notes (=2 beats) and then 2 quarters to take up the remaining two beats? or would that go against music theory? Granted, that would sound really awkward and strange, but im just trying to make sure I have a decent understand of it.

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You could. And no, it wouldn't necessarily sound awkward.

[Leon1242]

Well you guys I think I understand this, I appreciate everyone's help. Thank you guys so much for your time, it is much appreciated.

[Uncle Figgy]

Pink Floyd is one of my favorite bands too. I like the song they do about bricks.

[MargeHowel]

Leon you can totally mix & match note durations and it's not going to sound weird, it's done all the time. If you look at a piece of 4/4 music you will see whole noted (4 beats), half notes, quarter note, 8th notes, 16th notes, etc etc.
you can go longer OR shorter than the denominator that gets "1 beat"

Ever hear people count out "1 - & (and) - 2 - & - 3 - &..."
They are counting the half beats (8th notes if you are in 4/4)

quarter beats (like 16th notes in 4/4) get counted "1 - e (eee) - & - a (ahh) "

The thing is you can write something a few different ways and it'll actually be the same notes and durations

like 4 quarter notes in 4/4 make a measure
but in 2/2 (sometimes called "cut time")...4 quarter notes STILL make a measure

they'll be written the same way  (you can play a piece in cut time even though the time signature is written 4/4)

Why the hell would we do this if it's the same notes and durations?

Because the count effects the expression ( which notes we accent and all that)

try this - we're going to take 8 hand claps

start clapping and count it out

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8

do that for a few times, keep clapping at the same tempo, but switch to counting like this

1-&-2-&-3-&-4-&

do that for a bit then switch to

1-e-&-a-2-e-&-a

same tempo, same claps...but do you see how the feel changes...where you sort of put the emphasis and how you think about where the downbeat is and such?

[shredhead7]

Glad to have helped. I know a lot of musicians that don't know how to count, let alone read and understand a time signature. So kudos to you for taking the time to try to learn something that will greatly improve your playing and ability to pick up new things.

The best thing that I ever did for learning how to learn, was to take an intro to piano class in college. I wasn't even a music major and played guitar, but that single class taught me an intro to theory and how to read music (understand notation, time signatures, key signatures, etc...).

[Uncle Figgy]

When I was trained at music school they always said dont worry about the paper worry about what in you heart.

[onelife]

Another way to look at odd time signatures is to mentally divide the measure into sections.

5/4 as used in "Take Five" or "Everything's Alright" (from Jesus Christ Superstar) can be looked at as a 3 beat section followed by a two beat section.

7/8 as used in "Money" sounds like it has two first beats the way it is played on the drums (if that makes any sense). It sounds to me like a measure of six beats with another beat added at the end.

| kick - snare - kick - snare - kick - snare - kick | kick - snare - kick - snare - kick - snare - kick | 

[Joe Bleek]

It's been fairly well explained so far but I'll throw this in,

4/4= 4 beats in a measure, and the quarter note (1/4) gets the beat.  Notice the "denominators" match?  This means you can have as many as 4 quarter notes per measure (1/4+1/4+1/4+1/4=4/4=1 measure.)  You can add or subdivide notes any way you want, but the total has to equal 4/4 which equals one measure.  6/8=6 beats per measure, and the eighth note (1/8) gets the beat.  Mathematically, 6/8=3/4, but the accents are placed differently.  In 6/8, the accents should occur every three beats (three 1/8s x 2) and in 3/4, the accents occur every quarter note (=two 1/8s x3.)

4/4=C=common time.  2/2=cut time.  Again, they're the same mathematically, but in 2/2, the half note (1/2) gets the beat, so you're feeling common time in 4, and cut time in 2.

[Joe Bleek]

Onelife brought up the subject of asymetrical rhythms like 7/8, which are usually subdivided into sections (ex. 4/8 +3/8.)  If you put a grouping of 7 grapes on a table and ask anyone to tell you how many grapes there are, they won't immediately see 7 as one grouping.  They will automatically subdivide the total into smaller, simpler groups of 2s and 3s and then add the subgroupings and give you the answer.  Try this experiment on your own and see how you come up with the answer.

[Opposite Day]

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Leon1242 wrote:

Opposite Day and Shredhead, you guys helped a lot. I especially liked that Shredhead used Pink Floyd as a reference, that's my favorite band. So thank you so much for that! But I have yet another question, could you kind of mix the notes together so to speak? What I mean by that is if the sig is 4/4 couldn't you still use Quarter notes, eightnotes and maybe sixteenth notes all in one bar as long as they don't exceed 4 beats? for example, could I use 4 eighth notes (=2 beats) and then 2 quarters to take up the remaining two beats? or would that go against music theory? Granted, that would sound really awkward and strange, but im just trying to make sure I have a decent understand of it.

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Of course. There is a book called Reading in 4/4 which systematically goes through all the possible rhythmic variations of notes and rests in a 4/4 measure. Very useful. I also recommend getting a hold of a music notation program like guitar pro. The used to have a good free one called power tab. These will allow you to play around with writing different rhythms and the software will play it back for you so you can hear how they sound. Also the software will automatically group the notes according to the convention for that time signature. If you write sixteen sixteenth notes in 4/4, it will group them as four groups of four because that basic four beat pulse is maintained regardless of how the notes are subdivided.

Also one thing I've always found confusing about the whole rhythmic notation thing is that it is centered around the 4/4 time signature. In other words the names of the different note durations--half-note, quarter note, etc--refer to a 4/4 measure. A half note is half the duration of a 4/4 measure, but might be a different fraction of a measure in a different time signature.

For other time signatures you want to think of a half note as just a note with a stem where the little circle isn't filled in, but not necessarily of half of anything significant.

[onelife]

^^^ Good point

In a measure of 6/4, is a Whole Note held for four beats or six?

[Snaporaz]

 There are several kind of time signatures, i.e.

- Simple signatures such as 3/4 or 4/4

- Compund time signatures e.g. 9/8 or 12/8, also called duple meter.

- Complex time signatures as for example 3/8, 5/8 or 6/8 or 3/4

- Fractional time signatures, e.g. 3⅔/4, or 2½/4

- Irrational time signatures, e.g  5/10 or 7/21

- Additive time signature e.g. 

3+2+3+3

4 

[Opposite Day]

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onelife wrote:

^^^ Good point

In a measure of 6/4, is a Whole Note held for four beats or six?

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Four. Although I doubt you'd see a whole note in that time signature. It would more likely you'd see a dotted half accounting for the first half of the measure, tied to a quarter note, which would equal four beats.

[yanktar]

I think I liked "Time Further Out" with the rhythm of the "Unsquare Dance" in 7/4:

(tone)-clap-(tone)-clap-(tone)-clap-clap....even though all are the same length it gives a wild syncopation!