The Political Party

[Booker]

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dblazer wrote:

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Booker wrote:

Idiot.

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I know, but he just can't get it, no matter how hard I try.

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Thats why I stopped trying. 

[Kramerguy]

In response to the OP- I've wondered something for a long time.

If god has a plan... then everything happens for a reason.  It's a safe assumption I think, using the religious dogma and logic, as well as I've heard many people preach those two things in conjunction.

So.. Something like sandy hook WAS part of that plan.. while we may view it as sick and twisted, perhaps the dogma was that those kids all went to heaven and exist better there becuase of how things went for them here?  Perhaps one of those kids would have grown up and blown up the world and god knew this and interviened?  There's a million possibilities I suppose.  Religious dogma once again says this is likely and agreeable.

But the shooter, adam lanza- now he did something despicible, and according to religious dogma, he's going to burn in hell for eternity for killing his mother, a lot of kids, and also for committing suicide.

BUT, it was god's plan, right?  So one can only logically conclude that lanza was 'born' (programmed) to do it.  Freewill becomes a liability now for religion, since clearly if it was part of gods plan, the level of free will was part of that programming, or didn't really exist except as a false ideal.

So, he was born, destined to do something horrible, and then, for carrying out "gods plan", he's sentenced to eternal damnation.  

The math just doesn't work.

[Booker]

If god really does have a plan, that would rule out us having free will.

It would also make everything that happens part of his plan.

So why do christians spend so much time trying to fight his plan?

[Zig al-din]

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More irony; my mind is the one that ISN'T made up. Have you got compelling evidence? Let's hear it, or see it. There's no evidence of "creation", or any of the other mythological stories in the Bible. There's evidence of gravity, there's evidence of the mechanism of the solar year, etc. There's nothing to support the idea of a super-human being crafting any of it.

The idea of linear time, and the "Big Bang" are conceptions of man, which we know are inadequate to explain the universe. The idea of "something from nothing" has pretty well been disproven, which means before the "Big Bang" there were things here to go "bang", and that they developed from something over time. The only logical explaination of that is that there WAS something before the "Big Bang", not that everything suddenly sprung out of nothing.

Sorry, "God" has no basis in fact, or you could convince me (and the other 3/4 - 2/3 of the world that doesn't buy it) with some sort of evidence.

"Faith" is made necessary by the absence of any conclusive proof.

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The problem is that they think their views should and do apply to material reality, when in fact that is not the realm that spirituality and religion should be concerned about. It's kind of simple, imo. 

[Zig al-din]

It seems that both camps make the mistake that The Bible and other spiritual texts are ultimately about the nature of the material world - that seems to me to be an erroneous assumption. 

[Used2BMarkoh]

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Kramerguy wrote:

In response to the OP- I've wondered something for a long time.

If god has a plan... then everything happens for a reason. 

Orthodox christian doctrine is that humans have free will, so you can't just say that God directs every last detail.  There's an apparent paradox here, and btw, one of the marks of intelligence is being able to work with apparent paradox.  Is light a wave, or a particle?  Doesn't matter, as long as you know how to use the proper model for the proper situation.

A baseball batter may plan to bunt, but he still adjusts for what the pitcher chooses to throw at him.  A plan does not necessitate that every detail is pre-ordained.

[Booker]

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Used2BMarkoh wrote:

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Kramerguy wrote:

In response to the OP- I've wondered something for a long time.

If god has a plan... then everything happens for a reason. 

Orthodox christian doctrine is that humans have free will, so you can't just say that God directs every last detail.  There's an apparent paradox here, and btw, one of the marks of intelligence is being able to work with apparent paradox.  Is light a wave, or a particle?  Doesn't matter, as long as you know how to use the proper model for the proper situation.

A baseball batter may plan to bunt, but he still adjusts for what the pitcher chooses to throw at him.  A plan does not necessitate that every detail is pre-ordained.

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Idiot. 

wow.

just wow.

[Daryl Flynn]

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Sloppy Santa wrote:

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Daryl Flynn wrote:

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lol @ the snitch

Grammer isn't your thing, is it?

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Please tell me that was on purpose....

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typo

[Daryl Flynn]

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Sloppy Santa wrote:

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Daryl Flynn wrote:

"The odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something like the Big Bang are enormous. I think there are clearly religious implications"

Stephen Hawking

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Do you realize that the keywords above are "like ours" and why?

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"Like ours" simply means "like ours" in the context of Hawking's quote. If you want to read into it that other universes may have been formed without the hand of a creator, have at it.

Hawking was talking about our universe, and how there were clearly religious implications to it creation.

[Microtilt]

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Zig al-din wrote:

It seems that both camps make the mistake that The Bible and other spiritual texts are ultimately about the nature of the material world - that seems to me to be an erroneous assumption. 

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Excellent point.  Why would any person even feel compelled to use philosophical works to explain physical phenomena anyway?  It seems that only diminishes any true value the Bible does offer.

[onelife]

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dblazer wrote:
The idea of linear time, and the "Big Bang" are conceptions of man, which we know are inadequate to explain the universe.

[Sloppy Santa]

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Daryl Flynn wrote:

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Sloppy Santa wrote:

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Daryl Flynn wrote:

"The odds against a universe like ours emerging out of something like the Big Bang are enormous. I think there are clearly religious implications"

Stephen Hawking

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Do you realize that the keywords above are "like ours" and why?

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"Like ours" simply means "like ours" in the context of Hawking's quote. If you want to read into it that other universes may have been formed without the hand of a creator, have at it.

Hawking was talking about our universe, and how there were clearly religious implications to it creation.

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The implied importance hinges upon an ego-centric worldview. Once we get past our perceived importance the quote isn't close to as "profound" as you may think.

[Zig al-din]

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The implied importance hinges upon an ego-centric worldview. Once we get past our perceived importance the quote isn't close to as "profound" as you may think.

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Well, as Blake put it, "without Man, Nature is barren." 

[Used2BMarkoh]

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Booker wrote:

Idiot. 

wow.

just wow.

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Do you really thing anybody here buys this?  I used to have you on ignore, didn't I, for sheer waste of spacedness.

[Used2BMarkoh]

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Microtilt wrote:

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Zig al-din wrote:

It seems that both camps make the mistake that The Bible and other spiritual texts are ultimately about the nature of the material world - that seems to me to be an erroneous assumption. 

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Excellent point.  Why would any person even feel compelled to use philosophical works to explain physical phenomena anyway?  It seems that only diminishes any true value the Bible does offer.

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Who is?  You guys are always arguing with straw men.

[RogueGnome]

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Used2BMarkoh wrote:

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You guys are always arguing with straw men.

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Used2BMarkoh wrote:

I don't see why libs are ok with ANY innocent person doing any amount of time.  We really shouldn't have a justice system at all, by that line of thinking.

[Kramerguy]

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Used2BMarkoh wrote:

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Kramerguy wrote:

In response to the OP- I've wondered something for a long time.

If god has a plan... then everything happens for a reason. 

.  There's an apparent paradox here, and btw, one of the marks of intelligence is being able to work with apparent paradox.  

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well...First off, that makes zero sense.

Do you fully understand what a paradox is?  In simple terms, it's when two opposing truths co-exist at the same time.  Usually paradox's are discussed in terms of time travel, which scientists agree that it's not possible (at least going backwards in time), and no sane scientist would subscribe to traveling back in time as their personal religion.. because they know it's just a fantasy.  

What you should have said is:  "there's an apparent contradiction here", whereas at that point, your conclusion can ONLY be that "blind faith" is the plausable explanation.  You can't argue that a personal belief, which cannot be positioned as fact, is part of a paradoxial equation.. it just doesn't fit- you are shoving a square block into a circular hole, and you know it.  It doesn't fit.

Moving on to the apparent contradiction... That's exactly what it is.  It's not the only contradiction in christian dogma, but one of the more obvious.  The line of crap about being intelligent to work with a paradox is just silly.. and like I said, makes little to no sense.

[sdelsolray]

Re: Does God have a plan?

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Chaunch wrote:

Are things unfolding as they should according to him?

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First things first. Please establish the actual existence of this particular "God" first. Once that is accomplished, then the discussion can turn to whether that God has a plan.

[Daryl Flynn]

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sdelsolray wrote:
Re: Does God have a plan?

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Chaunch wrote:

Are things unfolding as they should according to him?

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First things first. Please establish the actual existence of this particular "God" first. Once that is accomplished, then the discussion can turn to whether that God has a plan.

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So you'd have a problem discussing next Tuesday I would presume?

[newbie chick]

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sdelsolray wrote:
Re: Does God have a plan?First things first. Please establish the actual existence of this particular "God" first. Once that is accomplished, then the discussion can turn to whether that God has a plan.

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I agree with this smart guy.