Boeing engineers OK contract; tech workers say no ~ union

moonlightin · ‎01-17-2013

hmmm... is the union helpful here or not?

Boeing engineers OK contract; tech workers say no

The union representing Boeing Co.'s engineers and technical workers delivered a split decision on a new contract Tuesday, with the engineers accepting their offer and the technical workers rejecting theirs and authorizing a future strike.

The union had recommended that both units reject the contract offer because it would not provide pensions to new employees. They would have a 401k retirement plan instead.

The union called that unacceptable, but the Chicago-based airplane-maker said the change was important to the company's future.

The vote came as the company is trying to solve battery problems that have grounded its new 787s. The engineers and technical workers in the union work on plans for new planes and solve problems that arise on the factory floor.

While a strike by the technical workers is not imminent, the vote means the negotiating team can call one at any time, said Bill Dugovich, spokesman for the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace.

The engineers' vote means those 15,500 employees have a new four-year contract in place, Dugovich said. Union negotiators hope to resume contract talks soon on behalf of the 7,400 technical workers, he said.

Boeing Commercial Airplanes President and CEO Ray Conner said in a statement that the company was pleased with the engineers' vote but "deeply disappointed" in the technical workers' rejection of what he called the company's "best and final" offer.

"The realities of the market require us to make changes so we can invest in new products and keep winning in this competitive environment ..." Conner said in his statement. "That's why our proposal to move future hires to an enhanced 401(k)-style retirement plan is so important, as we have repeatedly emphasized over the course of these negotiations."

Union members rejected one previous contract offer in October. SPEEA last went on strike for 40 days in 2000.

"With this second rejection by technical workers of Boeing takeaways, it's time for the company to stop wasting resources and improve its offer to reflect the value and contributions technical workers bring to Boeing," SPEEA Executive Director Ray Goforth said in a statement. "That way, we can avoid a strike and focus on fixing the problems of the 787 and restoring customer confidence in Boeing."

The latest labor unrest is happening as U.S. regulators launch an open-ended review of the 787's design and construction. Last month, a battery on a parked 787 caught fire in Boston. On Jan. 16, another 787 made an emergency landing in Japan after another battery problem.

All 50 787s that Boeing had delivered so far are grounded until the issue is resolved.

The union's nearly 23,000 employees are mostly in the Puget Sound region. Union leaders believe a strike would shut down Boeing production lines in Everett, Wash., where its big planes are made, as well as in Renton, Wash., where it cranks out the widely used 737.

The factory-floor assembly work is done by the members of the International Association of Machinists. The Machinists approved a new, four-year contract in December 2011, after a walkout in 2008 that contributed to a 3½-year delay in delivering the first 787.

It was also a factor in Boeing opening a plant in South Carolina, where laws make it more difficult to unionize.

"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details." ~ Einstein

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." ~ Einstein

" I generally avoid temptation unless I can't resist it. "~Mae West

The man and the gun become intimate and they cannot do the act without each other. So the gun is part of the problem."

pink freud · ‎08-23-2005

Techs get a worse deal than Profs in general, so cuts in contracts impact them even more.

Before this whole thing, had the first contract been accepted Profs would have still stayed a little bit ahead of inflation, but Techs would have fallen below inflation.

http://www.last.fm/user/pinkfreudHC

planteater-X · ‎01-17-2013

What's the difference between a Tech worker and Engineer in Boeingspeak?

Which group are most valuable in fixing the Screamliner?

pink freud · ‎08-23-2005

planteater-X wrote:
What's the difference between a Tech worker and Engineer in Boeingspeak?
Which group are most valuable in fixing the Screamliner?

A Tech is essentially a drafter/designer (what I am), while a Prof is an engineer.

http://www.last.fm/user/pinkfreudHC

Davo17 · ‎03-24-2009

These fucking unions continue to undermine research and development, as well as production.

I think they need to go. Nothing is sacred and we need the competition.

DSM-IV 301.95 Progressive Personality Disorder
A. A pervasive pattern of progressive political and inter-personal thought and action, rooted in discredited leftist (neo-Marxist) beliefs, beginning in early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by at least five of the following (individual must be at least 18 years of age to qualify for the diagnosis of Progressive Personality Disorder, as many of the criteria are age-appropriate for adolescents). This disorder often coexists with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Utopian thinking, e.g. a delusional belief that there exist simple, linear, side effect-free solutions to all social problems.
Lack of historical knowledge and perspective, and repression of personal memories dissonant with this belief system. e.g., the national mood post 9-11, including that of PPD patients, is suppressed in order to avoid conflict with subsequent reversal of beliefs as the PPD delusions were reinstated - hence the downplaying of terrorism as a threat and the obsessive concern for the "rghts" of temporarily feared and hated terrorists. (Note to clinician: please differentiate between mere historical ignorance, e.g., a doctorate in history from an elite university, vs. neurotic or psychotic delusions necessary to sustain these beliefs. )
Anthroplastic delusion, e.g. The delusion that behavioral conditioning performed by the government or some other collective will cure all behavioral and social problems, rooted in denial of fixed human nature. Implicit in this delusion is the idea that human beings are infinitely malleable and subject to behavioral manipulation leading to perfect control and predictability. Free will, personal conscience, and objective morality are denied, devalued or denigrated.
Anti-theistic rebellion: An emotional antagonism to the Judeo-Christian tradition, rooted in an abnormal persistence of adolescent rebellion (may also be related to the need to avoid counter-arguments that would question utopian, anthroplastic ideation). This behavior ranges from a mere antagonism to Christianity to a hatred of all forms of religion. The rejection of religion leads to a deep longing for a substitute religion, or in extreme cases, a messiah. The more Western a religion is, the more it is despised. Thus, these patients may openly accept more primitive pantheistic, neo-pagan, or animist belief systems, such as Wicca or fraudulent "new age" philosophies, e.g., Deepak Chopra, Tony Robbins, etc.
Animist delusion: The belief that mankind is evil and nature is benign. The incidence of this symptom is inversely related to practical knowledge and experience of nature. Collective self-hatred is a feature in this area, paradoxically existing side by side with egomaniacal omniscience, e.g., ability to accurately predict climate 100 years into the future. Typical thinking includes the self-hating belief that mankind is a cancer on earth and that the planet (subjectively felt as a "feeling being") will "retaliate." The animist delusion includes considerable cognitive dissonance, since the typical Progressive Personality is a believer in natural selection, which has resulted in untold suffering and cruelty, mitigated only by mankind's presence.
a. For example, the belief that an eagle egg or four-toed salamander is entitled to more legal protection than a human baby.
Environmental spasm: Chaotic, unreasonable, or incoherent episodes of manic activity on behalf of the environment or "mother nature." The delusional nature of this activity is evidenced by misanthropic attacks on works of man, and also by a manic focus on visible or totemic biological objects of little rational value. The patient is typically obsessed only with cute or cuddly creatures, often a displacement of the nurturing urge (often unfulfilled due to abortion).
Control obsession: A tendency to strive for excessive control over others through state intrusion. A contemptuous projection of unconscious envy which is subjectively experienced as "compassion." Through the magic of this unconscious mechanism, PPD patients typically want the state to appropriate your wealth while imagining themselves to be generous and "compassionate." Use of state coercion often substitutes for true acts of generosity; a low rate of charitable giving is often present.
Racist/feminist hypocrisy: Passionate advocacy of government-enforced discrimination based on sex or race, with aggressively proclaimed opposition to policies which are "racist" or "sexist." Obsessive conformity of thought within a racially diverse population. For example, a PPD patient might favor seating a racist on the Supreme Court, so long as the person is of the "correct" race. Often the cognitive dissonance normally associated with such beliefs is rationalized by the delusion that the "oppressed" cannot themselves be racist.
Overemotional perception: Excessive concern with how a social action "looks" or "feels," to the exclusion of actual resulting benefits or harm; in particular, any effects beyond the immediate. Resistance to, and denial of, objective evidence proving the adverse consequences of progressive policy. Superficial cognition about most matters of significant import, as the progressive personality relies on the "feel" of issues rather than truly understanding them. Obsession with "fairness" or "social justice" as opposed to what actually works.
Sexual dysfunction: Significant anxiety about sexual matters, manifested as:
a. Obsession with sexual and gender roles.
b. Passionate celebration of nontraditional sex roles and preferences.
c. The compulsion to define individuals by their "sexual preference" and to design social policy as if all individuals share the obsession.
d. An inordinate interest in preserving inappropriate, lewd, perverse, or antisocial forms of sexual expression.
e. Fascination with immature or deviant expressions of sexuality; reduction of human sexuality to animal sexuality.
f. The projected belief that the contradictory beliefs are a result of fear (e.g. "homophobia".
e. Obsession with contraception and abortion ("reproductive freedom").
Replacement of patriotism with matriotism: Unwillingness to defend country when attacked or threatened, allied with inability to name or recognize evil and General devaluation of the masculine virtues.
Cultural and moral relativism: The fervent belief that all cultures are beautiful except one's own, and that it is immoral to judge another's morality unless they are conservative.

pink freud · ‎08-23-2005

Davo17 wrote:
These fucking unions continue to undermine research and development, as well as production.

I think they need to go. Nothing is sacred and we need the competition.

Luckily for the rest of us, people who actually know what they are talking about get to decide these things, not people like you.

Who the hell do you think DOES R&D? It isn't executives.

http://www.last.fm/user/pinkfreudHC

Davo17 · ‎03-24-2009

pink freud wrote:
Davo17 wrote:
These fucking unions continue to undermine research and development, as well as production.

I think they need to go. Nothing is sacred and we need the competition.

Luckily for the rest of us, people who actually know what they are talking about get to decide these things, not people like you.

Who the hell do you think DOES R&D? It isn't executives.

Who does R and D when they are striking?

DSM-IV 301.95 Progressive Personality Disorder
A. A pervasive pattern of progressive political and inter-personal thought and action, rooted in discredited leftist (neo-Marxist) beliefs, beginning in early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by at least five of the following (individual must be at least 18 years of age to qualify for the diagnosis of Progressive Personality Disorder, as many of the criteria are age-appropriate for adolescents). This disorder often coexists with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Utopian thinking, e.g. a delusional belief that there exist simple, linear, side effect-free solutions to all social problems.
Lack of historical knowledge and perspective, and repression of personal memories dissonant with this belief system. e.g., the national mood post 9-11, including that of PPD patients, is suppressed in order to avoid conflict with subsequent reversal of beliefs as the PPD delusions were reinstated - hence the downplaying of terrorism as a threat and the obsessive concern for the "rghts" of temporarily feared and hated terrorists. (Note to clinician: please differentiate between mere historical ignorance, e.g., a doctorate in history from an elite university, vs. neurotic or psychotic delusions necessary to sustain these beliefs. )
Anthroplastic delusion, e.g. The delusion that behavioral conditioning performed by the government or some other collective will cure all behavioral and social problems, rooted in denial of fixed human nature. Implicit in this delusion is the idea that human beings are infinitely malleable and subject to behavioral manipulation leading to perfect control and predictability. Free will, personal conscience, and objective morality are denied, devalued or denigrated.
Anti-theistic rebellion: An emotional antagonism to the Judeo-Christian tradition, rooted in an abnormal persistence of adolescent rebellion (may also be related to the need to avoid counter-arguments that would question utopian, anthroplastic ideation). This behavior ranges from a mere antagonism to Christianity to a hatred of all forms of religion. The rejection of religion leads to a deep longing for a substitute religion, or in extreme cases, a messiah. The more Western a religion is, the more it is despised. Thus, these patients may openly accept more primitive pantheistic, neo-pagan, or animist belief systems, such as Wicca or fraudulent "new age" philosophies, e.g., Deepak Chopra, Tony Robbins, etc.
Animist delusion: The belief that mankind is evil and nature is benign. The incidence of this symptom is inversely related to practical knowledge and experience of nature. Collective self-hatred is a feature in this area, paradoxically existing side by side with egomaniacal omniscience, e.g., ability to accurately predict climate 100 years into the future. Typical thinking includes the self-hating belief that mankind is a cancer on earth and that the planet (subjectively felt as a "feeling being") will "retaliate." The animist delusion includes considerable cognitive dissonance, since the typical Progressive Personality is a believer in natural selection, which has resulted in untold suffering and cruelty, mitigated only by mankind's presence.
a. For example, the belief that an eagle egg or four-toed salamander is entitled to more legal protection than a human baby.
Environmental spasm: Chaotic, unreasonable, or incoherent episodes of manic activity on behalf of the environment or "mother nature." The delusional nature of this activity is evidenced by misanthropic attacks on works of man, and also by a manic focus on visible or totemic biological objects of little rational value. The patient is typically obsessed only with cute or cuddly creatures, often a displacement of the nurturing urge (often unfulfilled due to abortion).
Control obsession: A tendency to strive for excessive control over others through state intrusion. A contemptuous projection of unconscious envy which is subjectively experienced as "compassion." Through the magic of this unconscious mechanism, PPD patients typically want the state to appropriate your wealth while imagining themselves to be generous and "compassionate." Use of state coercion often substitutes for true acts of generosity; a low rate of charitable giving is often present.
Racist/feminist hypocrisy: Passionate advocacy of government-enforced discrimination based on sex or race, with aggressively proclaimed opposition to policies which are "racist" or "sexist." Obsessive conformity of thought within a racially diverse population. For example, a PPD patient might favor seating a racist on the Supreme Court, so long as the person is of the "correct" race. Often the cognitive dissonance normally associated with such beliefs is rationalized by the delusion that the "oppressed" cannot themselves be racist.
Overemotional perception: Excessive concern with how a social action "looks" or "feels," to the exclusion of actual resulting benefits or harm; in particular, any effects beyond the immediate. Resistance to, and denial of, objective evidence proving the adverse consequences of progressive policy. Superficial cognition about most matters of significant import, as the progressive personality relies on the "feel" of issues rather than truly understanding them. Obsession with "fairness" or "social justice" as opposed to what actually works.
Sexual dysfunction: Significant anxiety about sexual matters, manifested as:
a. Obsession with sexual and gender roles.
b. Passionate celebration of nontraditional sex roles and preferences.
c. The compulsion to define individuals by their "sexual preference" and to design social policy as if all individuals share the obsession.
d. An inordinate interest in preserving inappropriate, lewd, perverse, or antisocial forms of sexual expression.
e. Fascination with immature or deviant expressions of sexuality; reduction of human sexuality to animal sexuality.
f. The projected belief that the contradictory beliefs are a result of fear (e.g. "homophobia".
e. Obsession with contraception and abortion ("reproductive freedom").
Replacement of patriotism with matriotism: Unwillingness to defend country when attacked or threatened, allied with inability to name or recognize evil and General devaluation of the masculine virtues.
Cultural and moral relativism: The fervent belief that all cultures are beautiful except one's own, and that it is immoral to judge another's morality unless they are conservative.

Pigger · ‎05-14-2008

FWIW, my experiences with unions has been uniformly bad, in that the union workers I've had to deal with spent a lot of time & effort avoiding doing any actual work.

That said, I understand that it was and is corporate greed & lack of regard for their workers' welfare that created the situation where unions could form & grow. Unfortunately, the unions themselves have succumbed to the same greed IMO, and see their employers as adversaries, and in some cases, even work against the very corporations that pay their wages.

Like U.S. politics, there seems to be lacking a middle ground of moderate thought in employer/employee relations,where each could benefit reasonably from their combined efforts.

pink freud · ‎08-23-2005

Pigger wrote:
FWIW, my experiences with unions has been uniformly bad, in that the union workers I've had to deal with spent a lot of time & effort avoiding doing any actual work.

That said, I understand that it was and is corporate greed & lack of regard for their workers' welfare that created the situation where unions could form & grow. Unfortunately, the unions themselves have succumbed to the same greed IMO, and see their employers as adversaries, and in some cases, even work against the very corporations that pay their wages.

Like U.S. politics, there seems to be lacking a middle ground of moderate thought in employer/employee relations,where each could benefit reasonably from their combined efforts.

In this specific case we asked for the same contract we got four years ago, which seemed very reasonable after we got bombarded with "RECORD SALES!!!" emails from corporate all last year.

http://www.last.fm/user/pinkfreudHC

Pigger · ‎05-14-2008

pink freud wrote:
Pigger wrote:
FWIW, my experiences with unions has been uniformly bad, in that the union workers I've had to deal with spent a lot of time & effort avoiding doing any actual work.

That said, I understand that it was and is corporate greed & lack of regard for their workers' welfare that created the situation where unions could form & grow. Unfortunately, the unions themselves have succumbed to the same greed IMO, and see their employers as adversaries, and in some cases, even work against the very corporations that pay their wages.

Like U.S. politics, there seems to be lacking a middle ground of moderate thought in employer/employee relations,where each could benefit reasonably from their combined efforts.

In this specific case we asked for the same contract we got four years ago, which seemed very reasonable after we got bombarded with "RECORD SALES!!!" emails from corporate all last year.

I work for a large corporation, and Boeing is one of our customers. I am an hourly employee, non-union.

I understand what you're saying; we got no raises this year, despite record earnings for the corp.

The plant I work at became more busy a few years ago, when the corporation closed a union plant in NJ and moved the work here.

I have worked with our Boeing customers in Long Beach and St. Louis for many years, and found them to be easy to work with and to achieve good results in an efficient manner with. However, when I had to work with our Boeing customers that had done business with our NJ plant, I found them to be very mistrustful and obstructive. After a while, I came to understand that this was, at least to some degree, a result of Boeing having to deal with the uncooperative attitudes of the people in our NJ plant. Not just the hourly union folks, either; the poor attitudes seemed to exist from top to bottom, IMO. These Boeing people did come around however, after several years of dealing with our plant and the cooperation they encountered here.

These are my experiences only; there may be union situations that work well for all. I just haven't seen any yet. I also haven't seen many non-union situations where the employers were entirely "fair" to their employees.

A middle ground would be nice.

Davo17 · ‎03-24-2009

Pigger wrote:
FWIW, my experiences with unions has been uniformly bad, in that the union workers I've had to deal with spent a lot of time & effort avoiding doing any actual work.

That said, I understand that it was and is corporate greed & lack of regard for their workers' welfare that created the situation where unions could form & grow. Unfortunately, the unions themselves have succumbed to the same greed IMO, and see their employers as adversaries, and in some cases, even work against the very corporations that pay their wages.

Like U.S. politics, there seems to be lacking a middle ground of moderate thought in employer/employee relations,where each could benefit reasonably from their combined efforts.

Ive worked as a Paramedic at both union and non-union shops.

Almost without exception, the biggest fuckups-people who will kill someone-were at the non union shops. There was actaully a worse relationship with management there. The only benefit I can think of is we got 13 full uniforms, a helmet, and a heavy duty jacket on day one at the union shop.

DSM-IV 301.95 Progressive Personality Disorder
A. A pervasive pattern of progressive political and inter-personal thought and action, rooted in discredited leftist (neo-Marxist) beliefs, beginning in early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by at least five of the following (individual must be at least 18 years of age to qualify for the diagnosis of Progressive Personality Disorder, as many of the criteria are age-appropriate for adolescents). This disorder often coexists with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Utopian thinking, e.g. a delusional belief that there exist simple, linear, side effect-free solutions to all social problems.
Lack of historical knowledge and perspective, and repression of personal memories dissonant with this belief system. e.g., the national mood post 9-11, including that of PPD patients, is suppressed in order to avoid conflict with subsequent reversal of beliefs as the PPD delusions were reinstated - hence the downplaying of terrorism as a threat and the obsessive concern for the "rghts" of temporarily feared and hated terrorists. (Note to clinician: please differentiate between mere historical ignorance, e.g., a doctorate in history from an elite university, vs. neurotic or psychotic delusions necessary to sustain these beliefs. )
Anthroplastic delusion, e.g. The delusion that behavioral conditioning performed by the government or some other collective will cure all behavioral and social problems, rooted in denial of fixed human nature. Implicit in this delusion is the idea that human beings are infinitely malleable and subject to behavioral manipulation leading to perfect control and predictability. Free will, personal conscience, and objective morality are denied, devalued or denigrated.
Anti-theistic rebellion: An emotional antagonism to the Judeo-Christian tradition, rooted in an abnormal persistence of adolescent rebellion (may also be related to the need to avoid counter-arguments that would question utopian, anthroplastic ideation). This behavior ranges from a mere antagonism to Christianity to a hatred of all forms of religion. The rejection of religion leads to a deep longing for a substitute religion, or in extreme cases, a messiah. The more Western a religion is, the more it is despised. Thus, these patients may openly accept more primitive pantheistic, neo-pagan, or animist belief systems, such as Wicca or fraudulent "new age" philosophies, e.g., Deepak Chopra, Tony Robbins, etc.
Animist delusion: The belief that mankind is evil and nature is benign. The incidence of this symptom is inversely related to practical knowledge and experience of nature. Collective self-hatred is a feature in this area, paradoxically existing side by side with egomaniacal omniscience, e.g., ability to accurately predict climate 100 years into the future. Typical thinking includes the self-hating belief that mankind is a cancer on earth and that the planet (subjectively felt as a "feeling being") will "retaliate." The animist delusion includes considerable cognitive dissonance, since the typical Progressive Personality is a believer in natural selection, which has resulted in untold suffering and cruelty, mitigated only by mankind's presence.
a. For example, the belief that an eagle egg or four-toed salamander is entitled to more legal protection than a human baby.
Environmental spasm: Chaotic, unreasonable, or incoherent episodes of manic activity on behalf of the environment or "mother nature." The delusional nature of this activity is evidenced by misanthropic attacks on works of man, and also by a manic focus on visible or totemic biological objects of little rational value. The patient is typically obsessed only with cute or cuddly creatures, often a displacement of the nurturing urge (often unfulfilled due to abortion).
Control obsession: A tendency to strive for excessive control over others through state intrusion. A contemptuous projection of unconscious envy which is subjectively experienced as "compassion." Through the magic of this unconscious mechanism, PPD patients typically want the state to appropriate your wealth while imagining themselves to be generous and "compassionate." Use of state coercion often substitutes for true acts of generosity; a low rate of charitable giving is often present.
Racist/feminist hypocrisy: Passionate advocacy of government-enforced discrimination based on sex or race, with aggressively proclaimed opposition to policies which are "racist" or "sexist." Obsessive conformity of thought within a racially diverse population. For example, a PPD patient might favor seating a racist on the Supreme Court, so long as the person is of the "correct" race. Often the cognitive dissonance normally associated with such beliefs is rationalized by the delusion that the "oppressed" cannot themselves be racist.
Overemotional perception: Excessive concern with how a social action "looks" or "feels," to the exclusion of actual resulting benefits or harm; in particular, any effects beyond the immediate. Resistance to, and denial of, objective evidence proving the adverse consequences of progressive policy. Superficial cognition about most matters of significant import, as the progressive personality relies on the "feel" of issues rather than truly understanding them. Obsession with "fairness" or "social justice" as opposed to what actually works.
Sexual dysfunction: Significant anxiety about sexual matters, manifested as:
a. Obsession with sexual and gender roles.
b. Passionate celebration of nontraditional sex roles and preferences.
c. The compulsion to define individuals by their "sexual preference" and to design social policy as if all individuals share the obsession.
d. An inordinate interest in preserving inappropriate, lewd, perverse, or antisocial forms of sexual expression.
e. Fascination with immature or deviant expressions of sexuality; reduction of human sexuality to animal sexuality.
f. The projected belief that the contradictory beliefs are a result of fear (e.g. "homophobia".
e. Obsession with contraception and abortion ("reproductive freedom").
Replacement of patriotism with matriotism: Unwillingness to defend country when attacked or threatened, allied with inability to name or recognize evil and General devaluation of the masculine virtues.
Cultural and moral relativism: The fervent belief that all cultures are beautiful except one's own, and that it is immoral to judge another's morality unless they are conservative.

Pigger · ‎05-14-2008

Davo17 wrote:
Pigger wrote:
FWIW, my experiences with unions has been uniformly bad, in that the union workers I've had to deal with spent a lot of time & effort avoiding doing any actual work.

That said, I understand that it was and is corporate greed & lack of regard for their workers' welfare that created the situation where unions could form & grow. Unfortunately, the unions themselves have succumbed to the same greed IMO, and see their employers as adversaries, and in some cases, even work against the very corporations that pay their wages.

Like U.S. politics, there seems to be lacking a middle ground of moderate thought in employer/employee relations,where each could benefit reasonably from their combined efforts.
Ive worked as a Paramedic at both union and non-union shops.
Almost without exception, the biggest fuckups-people who will kill someone-were at the non union shops. There was actaully a worse relationship with management there. The only benefit I can think of is we got 13 full uniforms, a helmet, and a heavy duty jacket on day one at the union shop.

I appreciate your work, Davo; I was scraped off a road last summer & helped by Paramedics after some idiot pulled out from a side street into the path of my Ducati.

Pigger · ‎05-14-2008

Lord Elpus wrote:

This is great news for Airbus.

Woot woot.

As if the 787 fiasco wasn't already.

Pigger · ‎05-14-2008

Lord Elpus wrote:
Airbus blows Boeing.

OK :idk:

Davo17 · ‎03-24-2009

Pigger wrote:
Davo17 wrote:
Pigger wrote:
FWIW, my experiences with unions has been uniformly bad, in that the union workers I've had to deal with spent a lot of time & effort avoiding doing any actual work.

That said, I understand that it was and is corporate greed & lack of regard for their workers' welfare that created the situation where unions could form & grow. Unfortunately, the unions themselves have succumbed to the same greed IMO, and see their employers as adversaries, and in some cases, even work against the very corporations that pay their wages.

Like U.S. politics, there seems to be lacking a middle ground of moderate thought in employer/employee relations,where each could benefit reasonably from their combined efforts.
Ive worked as a Paramedic at both union and non-union shops.
Almost without exception, the biggest fuckups-people who will kill someone-were at the non union shops. There was actaully a worse relationship with management there. The only benefit I can think of is we got 13 full uniforms, a helmet, and a heavy duty jacket on day one at the union shop.

I appreciate your work, Davo; I was scraped off a road last summer & helped by Paramedics after some idiot pulled out from a side street into the path of my Ducati.

Appreciate it, sadly I frequently encounter motorcyclists while working.

DSM-IV 301.95 Progressive Personality Disorder
A. A pervasive pattern of progressive political and inter-personal thought and action, rooted in discredited leftist (neo-Marxist) beliefs, beginning in early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by at least five of the following (individual must be at least 18 years of age to qualify for the diagnosis of Progressive Personality Disorder, as many of the criteria are age-appropriate for adolescents). This disorder often coexists with Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
Utopian thinking, e.g. a delusional belief that there exist simple, linear, side effect-free solutions to all social problems.
Lack of historical knowledge and perspective, and repression of personal memories dissonant with this belief system. e.g., the national mood post 9-11, including that of PPD patients, is suppressed in order to avoid conflict with subsequent reversal of beliefs as the PPD delusions were reinstated - hence the downplaying of terrorism as a threat and the obsessive concern for the "rghts" of temporarily feared and hated terrorists. (Note to clinician: please differentiate between mere historical ignorance, e.g., a doctorate in history from an elite university, vs. neurotic or psychotic delusions necessary to sustain these beliefs. )
Anthroplastic delusion, e.g. The delusion that behavioral conditioning performed by the government or some other collective will cure all behavioral and social problems, rooted in denial of fixed human nature. Implicit in this delusion is the idea that human beings are infinitely malleable and subject to behavioral manipulation leading to perfect control and predictability. Free will, personal conscience, and objective morality are denied, devalued or denigrated.
Anti-theistic rebellion: An emotional antagonism to the Judeo-Christian tradition, rooted in an abnormal persistence of adolescent rebellion (may also be related to the need to avoid counter-arguments that would question utopian, anthroplastic ideation). This behavior ranges from a mere antagonism to Christianity to a hatred of all forms of religion. The rejection of religion leads to a deep longing for a substitute religion, or in extreme cases, a messiah. The more Western a religion is, the more it is despised. Thus, these patients may openly accept more primitive pantheistic, neo-pagan, or animist belief systems, such as Wicca or fraudulent "new age" philosophies, e.g., Deepak Chopra, Tony Robbins, etc.
Animist delusion: The belief that mankind is evil and nature is benign. The incidence of this symptom is inversely related to practical knowledge and experience of nature. Collective self-hatred is a feature in this area, paradoxically existing side by side with egomaniacal omniscience, e.g., ability to accurately predict climate 100 years into the future. Typical thinking includes the self-hating belief that mankind is a cancer on earth and that the planet (subjectively felt as a "feeling being") will "retaliate." The animist delusion includes considerable cognitive dissonance, since the typical Progressive Personality is a believer in natural selection, which has resulted in untold suffering and cruelty, mitigated only by mankind's presence.
a. For example, the belief that an eagle egg or four-toed salamander is entitled to more legal protection than a human baby.
Environmental spasm: Chaotic, unreasonable, or incoherent episodes of manic activity on behalf of the environment or "mother nature." The delusional nature of this activity is evidenced by misanthropic attacks on works of man, and also by a manic focus on visible or totemic biological objects of little rational value. The patient is typically obsessed only with cute or cuddly creatures, often a displacement of the nurturing urge (often unfulfilled due to abortion).
Control obsession: A tendency to strive for excessive control over others through state intrusion. A contemptuous projection of unconscious envy which is subjectively experienced as "compassion." Through the magic of this unconscious mechanism, PPD patients typically want the state to appropriate your wealth while imagining themselves to be generous and "compassionate." Use of state coercion often substitutes for true acts of generosity; a low rate of charitable giving is often present.
Racist/feminist hypocrisy: Passionate advocacy of government-enforced discrimination based on sex or race, with aggressively proclaimed opposition to policies which are "racist" or "sexist." Obsessive conformity of thought within a racially diverse population. For example, a PPD patient might favor seating a racist on the Supreme Court, so long as the person is of the "correct" race. Often the cognitive dissonance normally associated with such beliefs is rationalized by the delusion that the "oppressed" cannot themselves be racist.
Overemotional perception: Excessive concern with how a social action "looks" or "feels," to the exclusion of actual resulting benefits or harm; in particular, any effects beyond the immediate. Resistance to, and denial of, objective evidence proving the adverse consequences of progressive policy. Superficial cognition about most matters of significant import, as the progressive personality relies on the "feel" of issues rather than truly understanding them. Obsession with "fairness" or "social justice" as opposed to what actually works.
Sexual dysfunction: Significant anxiety about sexual matters, manifested as:
a. Obsession with sexual and gender roles.
b. Passionate celebration of nontraditional sex roles and preferences.
c. The compulsion to define individuals by their "sexual preference" and to design social policy as if all individuals share the obsession.
d. An inordinate interest in preserving inappropriate, lewd, perverse, or antisocial forms of sexual expression.
e. Fascination with immature or deviant expressions of sexuality; reduction of human sexuality to animal sexuality.
f. The projected belief that the contradictory beliefs are a result of fear (e.g. "homophobia".
e. Obsession with contraception and abortion ("reproductive freedom").
Replacement of patriotism with matriotism: Unwillingness to defend country when attacked or threatened, allied with inability to name or recognize evil and General devaluation of the masculine virtues.
Cultural and moral relativism: The fervent belief that all cultures are beautiful except one's own, and that it is immoral to judge another's morality unless they are conservative.

Disemboweler · ‎02-06-2006

Unions need to be more sensible.

No amount of evidence will persuade an idiot.

There are none so blind as those who choose not to see.

A pro is the opposite of a con. The opposite of progress? Congress.

pink freud · ‎08-23-2005

Disemboweler wrote:
Unions need to be more sensible.

How so? Specifically, what in this latest contract negotiation has made you believe that SPEEA is being unsensible?

http://www.last.fm/user/pinkfreudHC

nedezero1 · ‎01-17-2013

pink freud wrote:
Disemboweler wrote:
Unions need to be more sensible.

How so? Specifically, what in this latest contract negotiation has made you believe that SPEEA is being unsensible?

The fact that Boeing...the EMPLOYER...gets to make the employment offer, and the employees can reject the offer or take it. Freedom is a bitch. Boeing can always hire non-union engineers, etc.

Disemboweler · ‎02-06-2006

nedezero1 wrote:
pink freud wrote:
Disemboweler wrote:
Unions need to be more sensible.

How so? Specifically, what in this latest contract negotiation has made you believe that SPEEA is being unsensible?
The fact that Boeing...the EMPLOYER...gets to make the employment offer, and the employees can reject the offer or take it. Freedom is a bitch. Boeing can always hire non-union engineers, etc.

In which case the union loses work.

No amount of evidence will persuade an idiot.

There are none so blind as those who choose not to see.

A pro is the opposite of a con. The opposite of progress? Congress.

Used2BMarkoh · ‎06-02-2009

pink freud wrote:

Who the hell do you think DOES R&D? It isn't executives.

We're wondering that, in light of Boeing's latest plane. Overheating batteries? Every electrical engineer knows about the heat and explosive issues of batteries, so this latest failure mode indicates deep structural problems in Boeing's R&D system.

I have noticed that those who deny God also deny their own humanity

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