The Political Party

[Another Brick]

The paranoid should be allowed to keep their bend over to the rich private Internet service.

[radomu]

---

rbstern wrote:

---

radomu wrote:

---

rbstern wrote:

The potential for government abuse is huge. 

Think of it as the 1950s era AT&T monopoly combined with the Patriot Act.  That's the potential of free wifi provided by the government.  Instant and efficient spying without warrants or public knowledge.

The Internet and its access mechanisms are best left to decentralized management and free market initiatives to bring about affordability.

So, thanks, but no thanks. 

---

I don't see how this is in any way better or worse than the influence of corporate interests??

---

Don't know of any corporations that spend tens of billions of dollars a year on highly secretive, dedicated signals intelligence agencies, employing cryptography experts.  They're worried about things like which brand of coffee I drink, or what shaving razor I use, and its easier (and cheaper) to ask me in a survey than it is to spy on me with high tech gadgetry.

The government, on othe other hand...spying is what they do.  You know...to keep me "safe."

---

The best case study of what you just mentioned is the relation of private interests with the increase of government surveillance means in Britain since 2006.

If you think the state has a dualistic relation to private corporations then you have no perspective on reality. States can be pressured to act for the public interest when they are forced to, but they are ultimately in cooperation with private business.

[rbstern]

---

radomu wrote:

The best case study of what you just mentioned is the relation of private interests with the increase of government surveillance means in Britain since 2006.

The people of the UK want to live in a nanny state.  Not my place to criticize them if thats what they want.

If you think the state has a dualistic relation to private corporations then you have no perspective on reality. States can be pressured to act for the public interest when they are forced to, but they are ultimately in cooperation with private business.

---

 I assume you meant to write "Corporations can be pressured..."  Of course they can.  Just as individuals can.  And the marketplace will objectively punish them when such things come to light.  Punishing government for transgressions is a far harder, more ellusive goal, since government coins the money, makes the rules, and carries guns to enforce the rules.

[Used2BMarkoh]

Another aspect to this: If the govt took over WiFi, wifi would pretty much be the end of wireless progress. We'd stall at that level of technology, just as we'd never have had cell phones if the Bells hadn't been deregulated.

[RogueGnome]

---

Used2BMarkoh wrote:
Another aspect to this: If the govt took over WiFi, wifi would pretty much be the end of wireless progress. We'd stall at that level of technology, just as we'd never have had cell phones if the Bells hadn't been deregulated.

---

Why American Internet Service Is Slow and Expensive
Reporter David Cay Johnston was interviewed recently for his new book, which touches on why America's Internet access is slow, expensive, and retarding economic growth. The main reason? It seems the telecommunication companies have rewritten the regulatory rules in their favor. 'The companies essentially have a business model that is antithetical to economic growth,' he says. 'Profits go up if they can provide slow Internet at super high prices.'"

[RogueGnome]

US ranks 28th in Internet connection speed: report August 25, 2009 Enlarge A man surfs the web at an internet cafe. The United States ranks 28th in the world in average Internet connection speed and is not making significant progress in building a faster network, according to a report released on Tuesday.

The United States ranks 28th in the world in average Internet connection speed and is not making significant progress in building a faster network, according to a report released on Tuesday.

The report by the Communications Workers of America (CWA) said the average download speed in South Korea is 20.4 megabits per second (mbps) -- four times faster than the US average of 5.1 mbps. Japan trails South Korea with an average of 15.8 mbps followed by Sweden at 12.8 mbps and the Netherlands at 11.0 mbps, the report said. It said tests conducted by speedmatters.org found the average US download speed had improved by only nine-tenths of a megabit per second between 2008 and 2009 -- from 4.2 mbps to 5.1 mbps. "The US has not made significant improvement in the speeds at which residents connect to the Internet," the report said. "Our nation continues to fall far behind other countries."

"People in Japan can upload a high-definition video in 12 minutes, compared to a grueling 2.5 hours at the US average upload speed," the report said. It said 18 percent of those who took a US speed test recorded download speeds that were slower than 768 kilobits per second, which does not even qualify as basic broadband, according to the Federal Communications Commission. Sixty-four percent connected at up to 10 mbps, 19 percent connected at speeds greater than 10 mbps and two percent exceeded 25 mbps. The United States was ranked 20th in broadband penetration in a survey of 58 countries released earlier this year by Boston-based Strategy Analytics. South Korea, Singapore, the Netherlands,

Denmark and Taiwan were the top five countries listed in terms of access to high-speed Internet. US President Barack Obama has pledged to put broadband in every home and the FCC has embarked on an ambitious project to bring high-speed Internet access to every corner of the United States. According to the CWA report, the fastest download speeds in the United States are in the northeastern parts of the country while the slowest are in states such as Alaska, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. (c) 2009 AFP

Read more at: http://phys.org/news170447728.html#jCp

Thanks Corporate Amerika.

[radomu]

---

rbstern wrote:

---

radomu wrote:

The best case study of what you just mentioned is the relation of private interests with the increase of government surveillance means in Britain since 2006.

The people of the UK want to live in a nanny state.  Not my place to criticize them if thats what they want.

If you think the state has a dualistic relation to private corporations then you have no perspective on reality. States can be pressured to act for the public interest when they are forced to, but they are ultimately in cooperation with private business.

---

 I assume you meant to write "Corporations can be pressured..."  Of course they can.  Just as individuals can.  And the marketplace will objectively punish them when such things come to light.  Punishing government for transgressions is a far harder, more ellusive goal, since government coins the money, makes the rules, and carries guns to enforce the rules.

---

The people of the UK want to live in a nanny state only to the degree that they endorse major aspects of their welfare state, as do the Americans. The majority of people are in support for the basic programs that include social security, medicare, and medicaid based on US public opinion, and this is no different from the UK. Only a minority of libertarian extremists such as yourself endorse this utopian vision of a free market society.

As for surveillance, significant measures are also taken in the United States as well. I only mentioned the British case because it has been much more well documented due to the massive public opposition towards the policies of New Labour, so much so that the Coalition government is being forced to turn back parts of the so-called "security" reforms taken by Blair.

The evidence that contemporary American politics is increasingly geared toward the protection and endorsement of corporate interests and profit-making is overwhelming, and glaringly obvious to anyone outside of the country. The old narrative given by C. Wright Mills in 1956 about the so-called "power elite" that run the society under the joint cooperation of government and business has in fact escalated dramatically since the mid-1970s with the rise of neoliberalism in place of the post-war consensus. These changes occurred virtually everywhere on the planet, but the extent in which it has occurred in the United States is off the charts, as with Britain.

[Used2BMarkoh]

---

RogueGnome wrote:

---

Used2BMarkoh wrote:
Another aspect to this: If the govt took over WiFi, wifi would pretty much be the end of wireless progress. We'd stall at that level of technology, just as we'd never have had cell phones if the Bells hadn't been deregulated.

---

Why American Internet Service Is Slow and Expensive
Reporter David Cay Johnston was interviewed recently for his new book, which touches on why America's Internet access is slow, expensive, and retarding economic growth. The main reason? It seems the telecommunication companies have rewritten the regulatory rules in their favor. 'The companies essentially have a business model that is antithetical to economic growth,' he says. 'Profits go up if they can provide slow Internet at super high prices.'"

---

The "regulatory rules" come from government, right?  so you're confirming my point.

America's internet bottleneck is what's known as 'the last mile', and it's a legacy of the highly regulated telecommunications structure of the past.  You and I can't just go out and start laying fiber to the homes in our towns.

As to "super high prices", you can get free WiFi all over the place, so I don't know what that's supposed to mean.

And Korea and such - America is a really big country.  Yes, we should be better by this point, but see 'regulatory rules'.

[rbstern]

---

RogueGnome wrote:

US ranks 28th in Internet connection speed: report August 25, 2009 Enlarge A man surfs the web at an internet cafe. The United States ranks 28th in the world in average Internet connection speed and is not making significant progress in building a faster network, according to a report released on Tuesday.

The United States ranks 28th in the world in average Internet connection speed and is not making significant progress in building a faster network, according to a report released on Tuesday.

The report by the Communications Workers of America (CWA) said the average download speed in South Korea is 20.4 megabits per second (mbps) -- four times faster than the US average of 5.1 mbps. Japan trails South Korea with an average of 15.8 mbps followed by Sweden at 12.8 mbps and the Netherlands at 11.0 mbps, the report said. It said tests conducted by speedmatters.org found the average US download speed had improved by only nine-tenths of a megabit per second between 2008 and 2009 -- from 4.2 mbps to 5.1 mbps. "The US has not made significant improvement in the speeds at which residents connect to the Internet," the report said. "Our nation continues to fall far behind other countries."

"People in Japan can upload a high-definition video in 12 minutes, compared to a grueling 2.5 hours at the US average upload speed," the report said. It said 18 percent of those who took a US speed test recorded download speeds that were slower than 768 kilobits per second, which does not even qualify as basic broadband, according to the Federal Communications Commission. Sixty-four percent connected at up to 10 mbps, 19 percent connected at speeds greater than 10 mbps and two percent exceeded 25 mbps. The United States was ranked 20th in broadband penetration in a survey of 58 countries released earlier this year by Boston-based Strategy Analytics. South Korea, Singapore, the Netherlands,

Denmark and Taiwan were the top five countries listed in terms of access to high-speed Internet. US President Barack Obama has pledged to put broadband in every home and the FCC has embarked on an ambitious project to bring high-speed Internet access to every corner of the United States. According to the CWA report, the fastest download speeds in the United States are in the northeastern parts of the country while the slowest are in states such as Alaska, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. (c) 2009 AFP

Read more at: http://phys.org/news170447728.html#jCp

Thanks Corporate Amerika.

---

What a silly fucking comparison.  Those countries are geographically tiny.  The United States is 30 times the size of Japan or Sweden.  100 times the size of South Korea.  300 times the size of the Netherlands. 

It takes a little longer to lay that much fiber when you're dealing with MILLIONS of square miles, not thousands.

From the report:

"Instead, we saw high speeds in markets such as Eastern Europe where focus on infrastructural development and favorable geography promote a higher level of connectivity," Levitan said.

Maybe you can spend the afternoon finding more bullshit to indirectly support your indefensible bullshit.

[radomu]

But America still wins there because in South Korea, youtube is so slow that it's almost unusable. And many of the porn video streaming sites are completely censored, like Youporn or Redtube.

Suck it, Korea

[rbstern]

---

radomu wrote:

The evidence that contemporary American politics is increasingly geared toward the protection and endorsement of corporate interests and profit-making is overwhelming, and glaringly obvious to anyone outside of the country. The old narrative given by C. Wright Mills in 1956 about the so-called "power elite" that run the society under the joint cooperation of government and business has in fact escalated dramatically since the mid-1970s with the rise of neoliberalism in place of the post-war consensus. These changes occurred virtually everywhere on the planet, but the extent in which it has occurred in the United States is off the charts, as with Britain.

---

The Astors, Vanderbilts, Carnegies, Rockefellers, et. al. would find the current American capitalist environment positively stiffling in comparison to their heydays.

[radomu]

---

rbstern wrote:

---

RogueGnome wrote:

US ranks 28th in Internet connection speed: report August 25, 2009 Enlarge A man surfs the web at an internet cafe. The United States ranks 28th in the world in average Internet connection speed and is not making significant progress in building a faster network, according to a report released on Tuesday.

The United States ranks 28th in the world in average Internet connection speed and is not making significant progress in building a faster network, according to a report released on Tuesday.

The report by the Communications Workers of America (CWA) said the average download speed in South Korea is 20.4 megabits per second (mbps) -- four times faster than the US average of 5.1 mbps. Japan trails South Korea with an average of 15.8 mbps followed by Sweden at 12.8 mbps and the Netherlands at 11.0 mbps, the report said. It said tests conducted by speedmatters.org found the average US download speed had improved by only nine-tenths of a megabit per second between 2008 and 2009 -- from 4.2 mbps to 5.1 mbps. "The US has not made significant improvement in the speeds at which residents connect to the Internet," the report said. "Our nation continues to fall far behind other countries."

"People in Japan can upload a high-definition video in 12 minutes, compared to a grueling 2.5 hours at the US average upload speed," the report said. It said 18 percent of those who took a US speed test recorded download speeds that were slower than 768 kilobits per second, which does not even qualify as basic broadband, according to the Federal Communications Commission. Sixty-four percent connected at up to 10 mbps, 19 percent connected at speeds greater than 10 mbps and two percent exceeded 25 mbps. The United States was ranked 20th in broadband penetration in a survey of 58 countries released earlier this year by Boston-based Strategy Analytics. South Korea, Singapore, the Netherlands,

Denmark and Taiwan were the top five countries listed in terms of access to high-speed Internet. US President Barack Obama has pledged to put broadband in every home and the FCC has embarked on an ambitious project to bring high-speed Internet access to every corner of the United States. According to the CWA report, the fastest download speeds in the United States are in the northeastern parts of the country while the slowest are in states such as Alaska, Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. (c) 2009 AFP

Read more at: http://phys.org/news170447728.html#jCp

Thanks Corporate Amerika.

---

What a silly fucking comparison.  Those countries are geographically tiny.  The United States is 30 times the size of Japan or Sweden.  100 times the size of South Korea.  300 times the size of the Netherlands. 

It takes a little longer to lay that much fiber when you're dealing with MILLIONS of square miles, not thousands.

From the report:

"Instead, we saw high speeds in markets such as Eastern Europe where focus on infrastructural development and favorable geography promote a higher level of connectivity," Levitan said.

Maybe you can spend the afternoon finding more bullshit to indirectly support your indefensible bullshit.

---

I'm very skeptical of this claim. Can you link me a study that shows clearly that the national area of the US is the direct cause of its slow broadband speed?

[Used2BMarkoh]

---

rbstern wrote:

---

---

What a silly fucking comparison.  Those countries are geographically tiny.  The United States is 30 times the size of Japan or Sweden.  100 times the size of South Korea.  300 times the size of the Netherlands. 

It takes a little longer to lay that much fiber when you're dealing with MILLIONS of square miles, not thousands.

From the report:

"Instead, we saw high speeds in markets such as Eastern Europe where focus on infrastructural development and favorable geography promote a higher level of connectivity," Levitan said.

Maybe you can spend the afternoon finding more bullshit to indirectly support your indefensible bullshit.

---

And at some point, if we can keep the nitwits from mucking stuff up, we'll leapfrog these countries.  We have incredible bandwidth on our fiber backbones, we just don't have the last mile infrastructure.  But when Gigabit ethernet makes economic sense, we'll be the ones poised to implement the infrastructure, not Europe.  Asia, maybe, they are on a roll, no doubt about that.

[radomu]

---

rbstern wrote:

---

radomu wrote:

The evidence that contemporary American politics is increasingly geared toward the protection and endorsement of corporate interests and profit-making is overwhelming, and glaringly obvious to anyone outside of the country. The old narrative given by C. Wright Mills in 1956 about the so-called "power elite" that run the society under the joint cooperation of government and business has in fact escalated dramatically since the mid-1970s with the rise of neoliberalism in place of the post-war consensus. These changes occurred virtually everywhere on the planet, but the extent in which it has occurred in the United States is off the charts, as with Britain.

---

The Astors, Vanderbilts, Carnegies, Rockefellers, et. al. would find the current American capitalist environment positively stiffling in comparison to their heydays.

---

Not only did you ignore the first half of my reply, but that's just weak sauce by itself.

I can suddenly claim that the Nazi's did the holocaust to protect the Jews. I don't need any explanation whatsoever based on the fact that you think that's a descent rebuttal.

Try again.

[rbstern]

---

radomu wrote:

---

rbstern wrote:

---

radomu wrote:

The evidence that contemporary American politics is increasingly geared toward the protection and endorsement of corporate interests and profit-making is overwhelming, and glaringly obvious to anyone outside of the country. The old narrative given by C. Wright Mills in 1956 about the so-called "power elite" that run the society under the joint cooperation of government and business has in fact escalated dramatically since the mid-1970s with the rise of neoliberalism in place of the post-war consensus. These changes occurred virtually everywhere on the planet, but the extent in which it has occurred in the United States is off the charts, as with Britain.

---

The Astors, Vanderbilts, Carnegies, Rockefellers, et. al. would find the current American capitalist environment positively stiffling in comparison to their heydays.

---

Not only did you ignore the first half of my reply, but that's just weak sauce by itself.

I can suddenly claim that the Nazi's did the holocaust to protect the Jews. I don't need any explanation whatsoever based on the fact that you think that's a descent rebuttal.

Try again.

---

If you're a student of American history, you should be familiar with the robber-baron era of the U.S.  If you don't know it, then stop making stupid, comparative claims about the current status of the U.S. capitalist/politcal system.

[RogueGnome]

---

---

rbstern wrote:

---

What a silly fucking comparison.  Those countries are geographically tiny. 

---

---

what a silly fucking little child you are.

Your brain is tiny. And you don't comprehend the subject.

[rbstern]

---

radomu wrote:

I'm very skeptical of this claim. Can you link me a study that shows clearly that the national area of the US is the direct cause of its slow broadband speed?

---

The study itself acknowledges the geographic circumstances.  Any further research, you can do yourself.

[rbstern]

---

RogueGnome wrote:

what a silly fucking little child you are.

Your brain is tiny. And you don't comprehend the subject.

---

The people who have been payng me for IT work and advice over the last thirty years will be sorry to learn this.

[radomu]

---

rbstern wrote:

---

radomu wrote:

I'm very skeptical of this claim. Can you link me a study that shows clearly that the national area of the US is the direct cause of its slow broadband speed?

---

The study itself acknowledges the geographic circumstances.  Any further research, you can do yourself.

---

Which study?

---

rbstern wrote:

---

radomu wrote:

---

rbstern wrote:

---

radomu wrote:

The evidence that contemporary American politics is increasingly geared toward the protection and endorsement of corporate interests and profit-making is overwhelming, and glaringly obvious to anyone outside of the country. The old narrative given by C. Wright Mills in 1956 about the so-called "power elite" that run the society under the joint cooperation of government and business has in fact escalated dramatically since the mid-1970s with the rise of neoliberalism in place of the post-war consensus. These changes occurred virtually everywhere on the planet, but the extent in which it has occurred in the United States is off the charts, as with Britain.

---

The Astors, Vanderbilts, Carnegies, Rockefellers, et. al. would find the current American capitalist environment positively stiffling in comparison to their heydays.

---

Not only did you ignore the first half of my reply, but that's just weak sauce by itself.

I can suddenly claim that the Nazi's did the holocaust to protect the Jews. I don't need any explanation whatsoever based on the fact that you think that's a descent rebuttal.

Try again.

---

If you're a student of American history, you should be familiar with the robber-baron era of the U.S.  If you don't know it, then stop making stupid, comparative claims about the current status of the U.S. capitalist/politcal system.

---

Of course I'm familiar with the Guilded Age. But that reply not only ignores my point by not addressing it, but doesn't even have an explanation. 

1. Well thank god they would find the current American environment stiffling. This isn't the late-19th century any more. They can't make the rest of the population work for their railroads, coal mines, and oil fields for 12 hours a day.

2. That does not refute the fact that the corporate lobby is dominant in the functions of the U.S. state than ever since the Second World War.

Your argument was based on the premise that U.S. corporations are in a perpetual war against the U.S. government. I refuted that premise by giving you the established narrative of the structural developments of the U.S. economy in the past three decades or so.

[rbstern]

---

radomu wrote:

---

Which study?

scroll up

Of course I'm familiar with the Guilded Age. But that reply not only ignores my point by not addressing it, but doesn't even have an explanation. 

1. Well thank god they would find the current American environment stiffling. This isn't the late-19th century any more. They can't make the rest of the population work for their railroads, coal mines, and oil fields for 12 hours a day.

So your earlier, absolutist declarations about the state of corporate influence in the U.S. was hyperbole.

2. That does not refute the fact that the corporate lobby is dominant in the functions of the U.S. state than ever since the Second World War.

Your argument was based on the premise that U.S. corporations are in a perpetual war against the U.S. government. I refuted that premise by giving you the established narrative of the structural developments of the U.S. economy in the past three decades or so.

---

Corporations are bound by many things, but most importantly, by their fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders, so long as serving that responsibility falls within the law. This necessarily puts them at odds with governing bodies, as those bodies, through regulations and other forms of controls, seek to limit what corporations can achieve for their shareholders. It's simply a matter of rigorously trying to achieve the goals for which an entity was created to achieve.