05-01-2013 11:37 AM
Right, as in extended beyond the octave... thats how i have always thought of it. Things like the word "add" etc clarify that the chord is not dominant.
Strictly speaking, that it has no 7th. 9ths get added to dom7 and maj7s. An "add9" chord could have various functions, including dominant, ie V. (In the Police's "Every Breath You Take" every chord is an add9, including the V.)
05-01-2013 01:02 PM - edited 05-01-2013 01:11 PM
Jon, a "dominant" chord is a seventh chord regarless of whether it's the V chord or not. If it's the V chord it needs to resolve, if somwhere else (ex IV) it is "static". I know the V chord is called the dominant chord and that, as the V chord, it is a seventh chord to fit the notes in the scale but in certain style of music you can make any chord dominant i.e. 7th.
But whatever... Play on!
I have no need to pursue this topic.
05-02-2013 01:20 AM
Yes, I'm just being pedantic with terminology .
"Dominant" means the 5th step of the scale.
Build a chord on that step and we have a "dominant chord", the V chord, which begins as a triad. Of course, as a triad it's no different in type from the "tonic" and "subdominant" chords.
When we add diatonic 7ths to the chords, the V7 chord is unique, because it's the only one in the key that has a major 3rd and minor 7th, creating a tritone between them. That makes it different from the "tonic 7th" and "subdominant 7th", which are the same type (maj7).
That in turn explains why we use the phrase "dominant 7th" to describe that unique chord type (M3 b7), wherever it might be used.
But it's still correct to speak of a "dominant chord" which is not a seventh. In key of C, the dominant chord is G; it doesn't need to have F added. IOW, I'm simply distinguishing between "dominant" and "dominant 7th".
The same logic applies, btw, to "secondary dominants", only one of which actually needs a 7th.
Eg, in key of C, A major is "secondary dominant" of Dm (V/ii). It has a dominant function without a 7th being added. The one that needs a 7th is V/IV, or C7, because without the 7th (Bb) it's just the tonic. The others (A, B, D, E) achieve dominant function via their leading tones alone.
05-03-2013 09:50 PM
I hate to say it, but yet another thread that starts with someone trying to figure out something from square one yet ends up on square 57 in less than two pages, lol.
I too am interested in learning chords in a way that allows me to utilize them with the same knowledge I have of scales.
I always open these threads with anticipation, thinking "AHA!...toDAY is the DAY!" ...aaaaaand it ends up right about where the above post (not to single you out) does. Talking about subdominants, dominants, this n' that, that n' this.
After this long, you'd think I'd have learned: just about anything worth learning in music is going to be the hard way until you find the one way that works for you (mine was through a relatively inexpensive group guitar class focusing on, amongst other things, scales), and usually that's not found in a thread on the internetz.
THE QUEST CONTINUES...
05-04-2013 03:02 AM
Yes, we tend to get sidetracked into definitions of terms (or I do anyway). It's pedantic, but if we don't define our terms clearly from the outset, it leads to confusion (and more excess verbiage) later.
Music is complicated stuff, a highly detailed series of complex sounds. It's not as easy as any of us might hope to translate into words that help explain or understand it. We have to start with an agreed series of terms to use as labels. And yes, words like "tonic", "subdominant" and dominant" are - perhaps unfortunately - absolutely basic terms, right on page 1 of any discussion about key and chord progressions. Call them "I", "IV" and "V" if you like - that's all they mean - but there's no need to be afraid of them, or to be confused by them.
Music theory is a large body of knowledge, and you can't hope to just dive in anywhere and expect to know what's going on. You have to start at the beginning and work through.
But inevitably there are problems due to the fact that musical sounds are "slippery". We're trying to use text here to discuss things that only exist as sounds - and as sounds which often have ambiguous meanings and effects.
You might think a label such as a note name is pretty straightforward - we can all agree on what a "C" is - but can we agree on what "middle C" is? And is "A#" the same as "Bb"? If it is, why have two different names? If it isn't, why isn't it? or when isn't it?
This kind of thing is what makes music theory discussions rant on and on, often over something (a musical sound) which is a very simple thing to hear, or to play.
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