Songwriting Workshop

[Oswlek]

Thanks, Lee.  I really appreciate it.

The funny thing is, that chaotic chordal/melodic approach is one of the reasons I was unsure about this one when it first came out.  But it won me over after a few days and once I got this take down I felt really good about it.

[LCK]

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Oswlek wrote:

It's dead... dead in here
It's dead.... dead in here
 
This used to be the place to meet
Where inspiration flowed
It used to be.....
But now I see

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Just a tiny suggestion.

[blue2blue]

A couple of tiny rough spots, performance-wise, but, overall, very neat, very dreamy. 

And, though this isn't the video forum (there is one  ), I have to say I really love the look of that vid. 

It has its cake and eats it, too, in terms of being both cool looking and unpretentious.

(It is unnerving that the camera seems to move from time to time, but only from the point of view of someone trying to figure out why it's moving. That doesn't really interfere with the vibe at all. But for ob-com types like myself, the need to know can be overwhelming. = D )

[Oswlek]

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blue2blue wrote:

A couple of tiny rough spots, performance-wise, but, overall, very neat, very dreamy. 

And, though this isn't the video forum (there is one  ), I have to say I really love the look of that vid. 

It has its cake and eats it, too, in terms of being both cool looking and unpretentious.

(It is unnerving that the camera seems to move from time to time, but only from the point of view of someone trying to figure out why it's moving. That doesn't really interfere with the vibe at all. But for ob-com types like myself, the need to know can be overwhelming. = D )

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Thanks, Blue.  So there are only a couple of rough spots?  Damn!  I've come a long way!  Live takes used to be one giant rough spot. 

Regarding the moving vid, apparently I turned on the motion sensor on the camera, so it reacts if I stray too far from center.  I wish it had some deeper meaning, but that is all there is to it. 

[Marshal]

Really very nice. Lovely vocal and guitar work. Love those juicy chords. I love a good melancholy tune. This one's GOT IT. 

I suppose as a suggestion, I'd fall back on my usual angle on things. I'd like to hear something specific or plot development to the song. I'm left with questions as to what "here" is and just who left. And who is the protagonist? Why is he the only one still there. 

My personal bent would be to take the feeling of something like the deadness on the forum, and turn it into a relationship thing. Add a romantic angle, or some personal angle that the listener can relate to. I rarely write about a real situation anymore. Or at least I don't feel bound to stay within the constraints of the inspiring story. Instead I try to take the emotion and let it tell a somewhat different but more complete story. Not that I'm any good at it, or you should listen to me. I only point it out, because your songs are very good. I just think sometimes they need a little something more to make them more universal for the bigger musical world. 

Very well done. 

[Oswlek]

Thanks, Marshall.  Interesting that you mentioned the lack of a backstory, because that was something I really tried to squeeze in there, even at one point playing around with a bridge that offered a bit more illumination.  I ultimately decided that the bridge was a bad idea and frankly just posted the demo thinking our brethren here would help me sort the lyric issues out.  Somehow, though, the song grew on me as it was and so I've kept it that way.

There is definitely a song in your comment, so I'm hoping your might take the challenge on. 

[Lee Knight]

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Marshal wrote:

 I suppose as a suggestion, I'd fall back on my usual angle on things. I'd like to hear something specific or plot development to the song. I'm left with questions as to what "here" is and just who left. And who is the protagonist? Why is he the only one still there. 

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Sorry Marshall, but I couldn't disagree more. I'm not trying to be contrary but I really want to make this point that I feel is important.

Great songs don't have "plots". True, they can develop verse to verse, they can color the chorus meaning differently with each verse, but... to treat a lyric in a manner that it somehow needs a backstory, etc... I think that's a mistake.

By and large, songs don't tell stories, the communicate feeling. And yes, there are story songs, there are. But most aren't.

Louie Louie - Where do we gotta go?

Bridge Over Troubled Water - Why is she weary? And why is he sailing right behind?

Let it Be - Let what be?

People don't care. They want to feel. A song, for me, is more like a 3 minute movie.

We see a woman with a cup of tea sitting in her breakfast nook crying. Tears falling onto her newspaper's front page. She picks up her tea and puts it right back down because she can't bear the simple weight of it. It's too much. She looks at her newspaper, grabs it, and tears in half, in quarters, smaller even until her rage and sorrow make it impossible for her to tear it into even smaller pieces.

What in the newspaper made her so sad and angry? Does it really matter? Would it help the 3 minute movie to know her politician husband was busted in an affair? In this scenario, the feeling matters more than the story.

In this song, I don't want to know why it's dead in here. We've all seen it. Something that was... is no longer. And it's sad. Things change, and it's sad. This song grabs that. Backstory, in my humble opinion, would kill that feeling.

[LCK]

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Lee Knight wrote:

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 In this scenario, the feeling matters more than the story. ... In this song, I don't want to know why it's dead in here. We've all seen it. Something that was... is no longer. And it's sad. Things change, and it's sad. This song grabs that. Backstory, in my humble opinion, would kill that...

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I agree in principle with what you're saying, but I also think Marshall makes a valid point. It's not necessarily about giving us a more detailed plot but giving us a less generic, abstract lyric.

This is only true of the first verse. The second has some very nice imagery.

[Lee Knight]

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LCK wrote:

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Lee Knight wrote:

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 In this scenario, the feeling matters more than the story. ... In this song, I don't want to know why it's dead in here. We've all seen it. Something that was... is no longer. And it's sad. Things change, and it's sad. This song grabs that. Backstory, in my humble opinion, would kill that...

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I agree in principle with what you're saying, but I also think Marshall makes a valid point. It's not necessarily about giving us a more detailed plot but giving us a less generic, abstract lyric.

This is only true of the first verse. The second has some very nice imagery.

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This used to be a place of hope

Where inspiration flowed

It used to be.....

But now I see

It's dead in here

It's dead... dead in here

Scattered papers in the dust

Old footprints are all that's left of us

The curtain's drawn....

Our haven's gone

What's he talking about? A forum fading away? Nope. He's talking about going back to your old school and it being a wreck. That sad feeling you get. Or the feeling of a family on the brink of divorce gets as they sit down to TV. A place that was... isn't.

I love it the way it is. I'm not so much disagreeing with you and Marshall, as much as hoping Justin leaves it alone.

[LCK]

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Lee Knight wrote:

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I'm not so much disagreeing with you and Marshall, as much as hoping Justin leaves it alone.

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I'm not so much disagreeing with you as I am hoping Justin gives us a better first verse (or better first line).

I do agree completely that, as is, the song is quite good.

[Oswlek]

You guys are funny. 

I can completely see where LCK is coming from, but none of the alternatives are improvements, IMO.  "Place to go" is too bland and "Place to meet" throws off the rhyme scheme, diminishing the impact of the altered 3rd line.  I also think jumping right in with specific, detailed imagery is confusing, rather than the more sensical broad to narrow flow it has now.

I'm not against ammending it, but so far I haven't come up with or seen anything worth making the change.

[rickidoo]

Quite beautiful, as expected.

I know this is result of a song challenge. But it has the making of a good song - not neccersarily with these lyrics per say. Add a hook, and a compelling heartfelt story and it will work quite nicely.

[Oswlek]

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rickidoo wrote:

Quite beautiful, as expected.

I know this is result of a song challenge. But it has the making of a good song - not neccersarily with these lyrics per say. Add a hook, and a compelling heartfelt story and it will work quite nicely.

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Ha!  This reminds me of a joke my buddy and I used to saying to one another...

"It would be a good song if you just change the melody a little, maybe tweaked the lyrics here and there, got a new singer and switched up the guitar in certain places...." 

I know what you mean, Rick, but I think this I'm content with this one at the moment.  I am still running through ideas for the first two lines, but the structure of the tune isn't going to change, despite the lack of a true hook or normal layout.

[Marshal]

OK. I'll shut up then. If you want to write the next "Louie, Louie" then have at it. 

I've never said that anyone has to follow anything I say. i realize I have a point of view that is not shared to the same extent by others. I don't think I've tried to cram anything down anybody's throat. It's just a suggestion. Take it or leave it. Songs that I appreciate are ones that have a different dimension. Personally I think "Bridge" is one of Simon's worst. It signaled the end for Simon being a musical idol of mine. So that's where I'm coming from. Of course he made a ton of money off that and subsequent material. 

See you around. 

[Oswlek]

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Marshal wrote:

OK. I'll shut up then. If you want to write the next "Louie, Louie" then have at it. 

I've never said that anyone has to follow anything I say. i realize I have a point of view that is not shared to the same extent by others. I don't think I've tried to cram anything down anybody's throat. It's just a suggestion. Take it or leave it. Songs that I appreciate are ones that have a different dimension. Personally I think "Bridge" is one of Simon's worst. It signaled the end for Simon being a musical idol of mine. So that's where I'm coming from. Of course he made a ton of money off that and subsequent material. 

See you around. 

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Hmmmmm....  did I do something to offend you, Marshall?  I'm sensing some defensiveness and if I contributed to it, it was completely unintentional.  As I wrote before, I agree with your assessment and it was a big part of why I thought I'd be doing some serious reworking of this tune when I posted it. 

[rickidoo]

Being too hard on yourself. Let me restate what I meant.

Musically, I think the core of this piece - chordage, melody, emotions and overall style are kick ass. That is what I meant but did not say clearly.

But I felt that with the addition of a hook and a lyrical story that would reach out and grab me by the neck, that this would go from a good tune to great.

[rickidoo]

Oh... in looking at Marshalls post, which I only did just now, his two paras match how I feel:

"I suppose as a suggestion, I'd fall back on my usual angle on things. I'd like to hear something specific or plot development to the song. I'm left with questions as to what "here" is and just who left. And who is the protagonist? Why is he the only one still there. 

My personal bent would be to take the feeling of something like the deadness on the forum, and turn it into a relationship thing. Add a romantic angle, or some personal angle that the listener can relate to. I rarely write about a real situation anymore. Or at least I don't feel bound to stay within the constraints of the inspiring story. Instead I try to take the emotion and let it tell a somewhat different but more complete story. "

[Oswlek]

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rickidoo wrote:

Being too hard on yourself. Let me restate what I meant.

Musically, I think the core of this piece - chordage, melody, emotions and overall style are kick ass. That is what I meant but did not say clearly.

But I felt that with the addition of a hook and a lyrical story that would reach out and grab me by the neck, that this would go from a good tune to great.

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I was the one who wasn't clear, Rick.  I knew exactly what you were saying, I was just having a little fun at your expense.

Like with Marshall, I don't disagree with your assessment, but I haven't a clue how to apply it.  If you have any specific ideas, I'm all ears.

FWIW, I have little interest in making this about a failed romantic relationship.  If anything, I've been doing what I can to avoid that topic and find interesting storylines elsewhere.

[Oswlek]

BTW, Rick, check your PMs.

[Marshal]

No. You're OK. Everybody is OK. 

Never mind.