Recording Forum

[JTMusicVA]

yes, lower ohm usually equals louder volume

[scottland7]

Hate to hijack and revive an old thread, but it sounds like there are some folks here who can help.

I have a Tascam DP-008 multi track recorder and want to use it mostly for my son to record guitar tracks, ideas/riffs for song development, etc..  I bought a set of studio monitors in case we get into mixing a little.  Would like some decent headphones to add to this set up.  Was researching most of the afternoon and came away mostly confused about the headphone specs that would be most compatible with this unit.  I honestly don't completely understand the technology/terminology (i.e.. Impedance, sensitivity, power handling, etc.) and need some help.  MOSTLY, I WANT A DECENT SET FOR $125 OR LESS (PREFERABLY LESS) THAT WILL NOT FRUSTRATE AND THAT WILL FUNCTION AS IT SHOULD.  If the headphones can double for use with the guitar amp and digital piano, that would be a bonus.

I came across the Sony MDR-V6 which is priced right and seems to get really solid reviews.  And of course the various models from Audio-Technica pop up everywhere in recommendations.  Please let me know what you think.

BTW, the Tascam manual says this regarding the phones jack: 

"Maximum output level: 20 mW + 20 mW or more (THD + N1% or less, 32 ohm load)"

Thanks in advance for your help.

[WRGKMC]

Problem with buying headphones is manufacturers don't post the headphones frequency response curve. They post the minimum and maximum frequencies, but they don't tell you what is going on between those two points.  Most of your budget stuff have terrible frequency bumps and valleys throughout the frequency spectrum.  That's because Its extremely difficult to design a single speaker diaphragm that will give you a flat frequency response throughout the audio spectrum and without a flat response, you have no hopes of being able to mix accurately.  

I have a couple of old set of HiFi headphones that come close. Both are over 25 years old or more. The JVC set is over the ears and good for vocal tracking. They are fairly flat for lower frequencies but lack highs above 15K or so. Getting upper frequencies properly balanced with them involves guesstimating. Its easy to boost too much highs in a mix if the headphones don't produce highs faithfully.

The other set I use are open backed Koss bones that fit on the ears. Not much good for vocals if you use them loud because they leak sound out the backs. You don't get the bass boom though so what you do adjust is optimal. I must have repaired that set a dozen times. They look just plain awful and ragged out. The once curly cord is always tangling up, I have tie wraps in the headband, and had to make new foam pads a couple of times because they've turned to dust.

I'm not one to give up on an old piece of gear but they should have been retired them decades ago if my attempts to find something as good had succeeded. I have at least a dozen sets from all different manufacturers and none do as well.  I hadn't used them in years because I do all my mixes on monitors, but I pulled them out recently to do some raw mixing. 

When I ran the mixes through my studio monitors, those headphones came the closest to producing a flat mix without major frequency bumps. I still had to tweak frequencies, adjust reverbs, etc but you expect that absence of depth using headphones mixing. You can dial up some great guitar tones with them though.

[WRGKMC]

I came across the Sony MDR-V6 which is priced right and seems to get really solid reviews.  And of course the various models from Audio-Technica pop up everywhere in recommendations.  Please let me know what you think.

I'm not a big fan of sony stuff. I've owned three sets of their headphones in various grades and for the most part they suck. I don't know that particular set, but in my cases, they quickly had issues with poor cable quality, and even elements blowing out. They weren't even seeing loud sounds, the elements just opened up. Had one of their mics way back too and the same thing happened, the mic element just opened up.

That can be caused by poor quality wire as well. At some point there are wires that bridge the element and the terminals that connect the cord. Those wires get flexed repetitively as the element moves in an out. If the wire isn't high grade, it suffers from metal fatigue and fractures causing an open circuit.

I suspect this is the problem with allot of their gear. Good cable manufacturers weave cotton strands into their wire and cable so it resists stretching the copper wire and the cloth helps to prevent the copper from fracturing inside when the cable is accidentally tugged. Cotton strands is superior to nylon in my opinion because it doesn't separate from the outer casing and prevents stretching when tugged. (its why most good mic cable uses cloth reinforcement. Some use nylon/Teflon strands to reinforce the copper wire but it doesn't always work as well. One good tug and all the insulation separates leaving the copper to fracture. Once they stretch they remain permanently stretched.

The Sony headphone cables I've repaired had little reinforcement of any kind.  One tug and the thin conductors snap inside the wire or pull off the connections. Having durability as well as good sound quality are essential with headphones. I have one set that guaranteed its cables for life and after 25 years of use and constant tugging in a studio environment, I've never had to repair them.

Cord length is a factor too you shouldn't overlook. Many of these manufactures stick a 3" cable on there which is just too short for most purposes. Then you're having to deal with extensions. If a set has at least 6' its good for most applications.

[scottland7]

Thanks for your detailed reply.  Unfortunately, I'm still pretty lost about what specs to consider that would be most compatible for the Tascam (and possibly also appropriate for the guitar amp and digital piano).  I have read that if the impedance from the source and the specs of headphones aren't a good match, sometimes the headphones are not loud enough or do not represent the music accurately.  I know this is NOOB stuff, so please accept my apologies for "dumbing down" the conversation. 

Just want to make sure I narrow my search based on good information regarding the specs I need from the headphones (impedance, sensitivity, frequency response, etc.).

THANKS!

[Rudolf von Hag…]

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scottland7 wrote:

Thanks for your detailed reply.  Unfortunately, I'm still pretty lost about what specs to consider that would be most compatible for the Tascam (and possibly also appropriate for the guitar amp and digital piano).  I have read that if the impedance from the source and the specs of headphones aren't a good match, sometimes the headphones are not loud enough or do not represent the music accurately.  I know this is NOOB stuff, so please accept my apologies for "dumbing down" the conversation. 

Just want to make sure I narrow my search based on good information regarding the specs I need from the headphones (impedance, sensitivity, frequency response, etc.).

THANKS!

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Well, you can actually buy any kind of headphones in your prefered price range, but unfortunately nobody knows which headphones are the best, for that one would have to compare all the headphones.

I use AKG headhones designed for recording engineer, and the sonic difference between a low priced AKG for normal consumer listening, and a high priced AKGs for recording engineers and sound editors, is minimal.

The lowest priced open headphone for recording engineers, the AKG K 240 Studio, is $99, the high priced pro, the AKG Q701, is $299, I barely hear a difference between the two, nor any other AKG headphone. In other words the $99 one does juust fine.

For editing music for hours, I prefer the AKG professional studio semi-open circumaural headphones.

[scottland7]

Very helpful.  Thank you.

So you're saying that the specs of the headphones for my purposes do not really matter?  Impedence (which seems to vary widely among headphones), sensitivity, and power handling capacity and how they handle the signal the Tascam sends will not impact the functionality of the headphones?  If that's the case, I suppose it opens up a world of options which doesn't help me much.  

[Rudolf von Hag…]

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scottland7 wrote:

Very helpful.  Thank you.

So you're saying that the specs of the headphones for my purposes do not really matter?  Impedence (which seems to vary widely among headphones), sensitivity, and power handling capacity and how they handle the signal the Tascam sends will not impact the functionality of the headphones?  If that's the case, I suppose it opens up a world of options which doesn't help me much.  

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There are some real bad headphones out there.

Impedance has absolutely no influence on the sonic quality.

Impedance has an influence on how loud a headphone will perform.

So-called low-impedance headphones have between 75 and 150 ohms. Headphones with an impedance in this area you can go directly to the headphone output of all recording or reproducing apparatus.

Higher impedances are in the studio advantageous where several headphones can be connected in parallel for monitoring applications.

[WRGKMC]

I like the AKG's Rudolph mentions. I used the pro grade versions when I was a video producer and we'd do vocal narrations for films.

Its not only the headphones that matter, its the headphone amp and sound source.  I wouldn't worry too much about how loud they are. Most headphones have amble loudness and most headphone amps will supply twice the volume you'd even need.

You quickly find its better to track at lower headphone levels because your ears fatigue quickly. Every time I crank up my DAW and play back a recording I recently worked on with the same settings its very loud at first listening. And at the end of every session when completing a piece of work it seems like it could be louder to ear the details.

This is due to your ears changing sensitivity as they fatigue from loud volumes. I read when the engineers mixed at motown they had a limit as to how long they were allowed to mix any one recording, because after that point their ear sensitivity dropped off and it affected the mix. 

You'll find that same issue even more prevalent working with headphones, especially closed backed headphones used isolation tracking because all of the compression has only one place to go.

There is also the quality of the headphone amp. Many interfaces have mediocre headphone amps built in. Not super loud but sufficient for tracking. They may get hissy or distorted over a certain volume level and if you're having to track with headphone levels that high, chances are, your source of sound is being tracked too low. You have to balance the source signal so its loud enough to produce a quality signal for the headphone amp. Most manufacturers give you a good range.

You'll likely find, with mediocre headphones, and the headphone amp adjusted up 50%  You can dial up the mic preamp about the same and get a optimal recording levels.

If you focus on buying loud headphones, you'll likely have to turn the headphone amp down so you don't have your ears blasted. This can cause more problems than you suspect. Running a headphone amp to low (or too high) can alter its optimum sound quality. An analog amplifier of any kind including a headphone amp has a sweet spot where it produces the best sound quality. Most guitarists know this from using a guitar amp. They have a volume setting they set where the speakers sound best. Its true for any amp speaker system and goes right down to how the signal is driven by a solid state device between min and Max levels.

Ideally you want the amp to run between 50~70% where it produces the highest fidelity. If you plug in overly sensitive/loud headphones, the result may be you turn the headphone amp down to say 25%. The result may be poorer sound quality working in that range.

Instead of sounding bigger and better, opposite occurs. If you turn the headphones up to where the headphone amp produces the best quality, then you can wind up trusting your ears to how loud the source of sound should be and track at weaker levels. You can track fairly weak sources running 24 bit sample rates but not all plugins like compressors may work well. So you boost the tracks up and with them the noise floor comes up.

If your headphones are weak on the other hand, you wind up cranking the headphone amp and the source and wind up with allot of saturated tracks. Not a good thing either.

Main thing is just about any headphones you buy will do fine. My buddy has a Firebox and the built in headphone amp is pretty good quality. It produces a nice beefy sound and even budget bones will sound fairly good. It has 150 mW/CH @ 60 Ohm Load and so long as the headphones are close to that impedance you should be fine for tracking.  

[scottland7]

Thanks to you both for your responses. 

Is it safe to say, then, that if I match the ohm load of the source (in my case 32 ohms) to the headphone specs, and that the headphones have good sensitivity (around 100 dB/mW) that I have a good match?

After those specs,  the other factors to consider are cord length, comfort, etc.?  

[Rudolf von Hag…]

Is it safe to say, then, that if I match the ohm load of the source (in my case 32 ohms) to the headphone specs, and that the headphones have good sensitivity (around 100 dB/mW) that I have a good match?

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The headphone key data are impedance, the transducer itself, and the sound pressure level at the ear.

So-called low-impedance headphones have between 75 and 150 ohms. Headphones with an impedance in this area you can go directly to the headphone output.

Higher impedances are for studio where several headphones are connected in parallel.

The sound pressure level of headphones is usually given as sound pressure levels in the ear with an input power of 1 mW.

The sound pressure level of most AKG headphones is 88 to 105 dB/mW. Sounds even very poud at low power. A simple calculation shows that a signal voltage of: 0.775 Vrms 600 Ohm load corresponding to a power of 1 mW. At 75 ohm load corresponds the same voltage a power of 8 mW, a difference of about 9 dB.

It make no sense to use 600 Ohm and lower impedance headphones at the same time.

600 Ohm models are more robust than low Ohm, because the higher resistance coils are less susceptible to thermal overload as low impedance designs.

To achieve a 600-ohm an output of 200 mW, a signal voltage of 11 V is required.

It is thus evident that the high-impedance headphones advantage is that they can be operated on almost any amplifier output without risk of damage due to overload, with. Up to 10 or more headphones can be connected to one and the same output.

Low-impedance headphones are for devices with low output voltages such as portable devices (iPhone, CD Player, etc.), but only one single Low-impedance headphone can be connected to a single headset output.