Phil O'Keefe: In The Studio Trenches

[gubu]

Is there anything wrong with placing your monitors on a flat plane, and not angled towards the listening position, as common wisdom would have it?

I know from experience that stereo imaging is better focussed when the monitors are angled to 'throw' just past your ears at the listening position, in an equilateral triangle setup. But it seems that having them on a flat plane is closer to the way most consumers listen to music, thru docks, carspeakers, home systems etc.

Both work for me and I switch back and forth, checking how it's coming along.

What way do you have your monitors set up?

[Rimmer]

Interesting viewpoint that I haven't previously thought through before..

The stereo image may be better focused if the monitors are pointed towards you but it's maybe merely just another factor we need to consider when it comes to judging stereo imaging whilst using domestic audio appliances. The distance between the monitors is more so I suspect. 

I think the main reason I always direct the monitors to my listening position (ideally as close to a triangle) is that it gives a better chance of the sound hitting me earlier rather than later.. Maybe we have better things to be thinking about.. I don't know...

Regards, Rimmer

[Phil O'Keefe]

I prefer having them toed in at an angle.

[peanutroad]

My nearfields on my desk are angled in the generally recommended fashion, but I have a second pair of larger hi-fi speakers back another three foot or so, pointed straight ahead and I switch between them. Having the second pair also is nice if I want to go sit on the sofa at the back of the room and listen.

[gubu]

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peanutroad wrote:

My nearfields on my desk are angled in the generally recommended fashion, but I have a second pair of larger hi-fi speakers back another three foot or so, pointed straight ahead and I switch between them. Having the second pair also is nice if I want to go sit on the sofa at the back of the room and listen.

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A second pair of monitors. Now there's an idea!

[blue2blue]

Since one of my goals is to minimize early (side) reflections that tend to 'confuse' the auditory system and blur imaging, I follow the generally accepted best practice of sitting at one corner of a roughly equilateral triangle with the speakers at the others, angled to my ears. 

There's no question that changing the angle of aspect of the speakers will change the sound -- and speakers designed for monitoring use tend to be designed with somewhat narrow HF dispersion (to minimize those peripheral,  early reflections) -- so I use them as they were intended to be used.

[Lee Knight]

Though I haven't tried it yet, this, a 99 cent app from Genelec looks very interesting...

http://www.genelec.com/news/latest-news/919-genelec-unveils-speakerangle-app-for-ios-devices/

[Phil O'Keefe]

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Lee Knight wrote:

Though I haven't tried it yet, this, a 99 cent app from Genelec looks very interesting...

http://www.genelec.com/news/latest-news/919-genelec-unveils-speakerangle-app-for-ios-devices/

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That looks like an interesting and useful app!

[Thamel]

You can check out also some basic tips here for monitor placement...

http://en.audiofanzine.com/active-monitor/editorial/articles/how-to-place-monitors.html

[Phil O'Keefe]

Speaking of the Genelec app, I wrote it up in a brief article - the app works great, and makes the process of setting up your monitors super easy.

http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Recording-Video-Articles/Toe-In-Your-Monitors-The-Easy-Way/ba-p/348...

[veracohr]

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gubu wrote:

But it seems that having them on a flat plane is closer to the way most consumers listen to music, thru docks, carspeakers, home systems etc.

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Yeah, but music listeners are also often completely off-center from the speakers; would you want to mix like that too? If I'm sitting on my couch my speakers are about 30-35 degrees to the right and firing across me. In a car you're always much closer to one speaker than any other. Neither would be a good way to try mixing. I understand the intuition that makes you consider trying to hear things "as the listener does", but in practice I'm not sure it will really do you much good. Remember that all those great-sounding albums out there, which sound great regardless of what system you're hearing them on and where the speakers are pointed, were very likely mixed in the conventional monitoring manner. There's something to be said for that.

[gubu]

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veracohr wrote:

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gubu wrote:

But it seems that having them on a flat plane is closer to the way most consumers listen to music, thru docks, carspeakers, home systems etc.

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Yeah, but music listeners are also often completely off-center from the speakers; would you want to mix like that too? If I'm sitting on my couch my speakers are about 30-35 degrees to the right and firing across me. In a car you're always much closer to one speaker than any other. Neither would be a good way to try mixing. I understand the intuition that makes you consider trying to hear things "as the listener does", but in practice I'm not sure it will really do you much good. Remember that all those great-sounding albums out there, which sound great regardless of what system you're hearing them on and where the speakers are pointed, were very likely mixed in the conventional monitoring manner. There's something to be said for that.

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Very true.

I guess what I failed to mention in the OP is that my room is far from ideal, and I like to take a walk around the room for a listen when I'm getting close to finishing a mix. I've got some rudimentary corner trapping, a few soft wall hangings at reflection points, and a strategically placed bookcase behind the listening position, but I've heard superb mixing rooms, and my one ain't.

So, for me, being able to splay the monitors flat and have a walk around probably saves me burning a couple of different mixes to try in the car and the kitchen and whatnot. If the mix is cooking with the monitors in the standard 'toed in' array, and splayed flat as I have a walk around, it usually doesn't need too much more work, if any. <-all other things considered!

[flatfinger]

When I built a set of 3 way monitors, I used Room EQ Wizard and a small element omni mic to measure the frequency response ( Primarily from the mix position , but I also did the crossovers with the boxes 6 ft in the air  to  enable semi anechoic methods)

Something that was hammerd home during these experiences  ?? 

Sound moves at a round 750 mph and the room will have it's  influence PERIOD . The concept of near field monitoring has some merit , but never believe that it's like a big set of headphones just because you are crowding   those  speakers !!

I actually wanted great dispersion cause I have a Big room so I used dome tweets and  dome mids also . I ended up with  a equilateral  triangle  , but I  didn't  stay with 60 degrees at the boxes . I ended  up at around 55 degrees when fine tuning the stereo field.

I also found that when I integrated  the Subs, since the mix position is a little off center , I had to eq some frequencies down in gain since they were getting a boundary  boost by being closer to one end of the room ,

  Acoustician's     defiantley   have a hard job..... 

[aZnrockstar]

Check out Bob Hodas.  He is one of the foremost acousticians who has a reputation for setting up studios for optimal sound.  I emailed him a while back about a monitoring issue, and he got right back to me with a concise, direct answer that solved the problem.  He could probably educate you on the 60 degree triangle better than most.  I believe what the triangle does is maximize direct listening in the mixing zone while minimizing any phase cancellation that may occur.  It is more of a "best case scenario" and not so much the "perfect setup".  The perfect setup would allow 100% frequency response with zero cancellation anywhere in the room, while reproducing the stereo field as it will be on any system.  Not going to happen.  But the 60 Deg triangle is the closest we can get with two ears that gives you best results on the large majority of audio reproduction environments.  

[Phil O'Keefe]

The perfect setup would allow 100% frequency response with zero cancellation anywhere in the room, while reproducing the stereo field as it will be on any system.  Not going to happen.

A guy can dream, can't he?