Live Sound & Production

[ChiroVette]

Originally Posted by dboomer

Would you be willing to bet your life that you could pick out speaker A or speaker B once they were professionally setup? I wouldn't.

I think this may be a problematic position to take. Because, to be quite honest, if a sound engineer knows how to tune a system to its best sonic advantage, he or she would probably NOT be using an active system anyway because the passive equivalent, in the hands of someone highly skilled, will sound better than the active system in the same hands.

So I have to take some issue with your position on the grounds that the majority of people who are buying active cabs are like me, not skilled, and not able to muster the experience to "dial in" the system that may sound weaker out of the box. In short, if a guy like agedhorse, for instance, decided to use this class of speakers for a series of small gigs, then I have absolutely no doubt that whether he was using K's, KW's, PRX's, or DSR's, that the system will sound as good as it could sound and that, in his hands, they would probably be roughly equivalent or indistinguishable to any listener.

But since we are NOT talking about guys with his experience or even guys with your experience, people here should be sensitive to the real question, which I believe to be the single most important question on this class of speakers. That question is, "What speaker sounds best out of the box and in the hands of the less than experienced user?"

Because to be quite honest, I couldn't personally care less if a guy with your skills, which I assume to be considerable, can tune the systems to sound identical. See my point?

[agedhorse]

There are plenty of the most highly skilled engineers using powered speakers... Meyer, EAW, JBL vertec, rcf Tt and hla for example.

[ChiroVette]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

There are plenty of the most highly skilled engineers using powered speakers... Meyer, EAW, JBL vertec, rcf Tt and hla for example.

Okay, good to know. I always assumed that, given the choice, the more experienced pro would choose the passive cabs over the active equivalents.

[Al Poulin]

The RCF TT cabs simply sound fantastic. Articulate and as crisp of a top end as I have heard.

Al

[abzurd]

Originally Posted by dboomer

You answered your own question. It depends on what you play through it. I guarantee you that there is some song that will make any one particular system sound great while making another sound not so good. IMHO the least smart thing you can do is to audition any speakers by playing your favorite songs (unless they are the only songs to ever be played through the speakers).

I don't listen for how it sounds "out of the box" I listen for its potential after I get it dialed in. EQ and "harshness" are very low on my list of what to listen for as they are easily adjusted. Articulation is up at the top of my list.

This is where having a digital board with recording is handy. You can literally audition your own band through the system. I did that a few years ago at a store where they allowed me to bring in my board and my current subwoofer. Then last weekend I did the same with the FBT's I was auditioning.

[dboomer]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

I couldn't personally care less if a guy with your skills, which I assume to be considerable, can tune the systems to sound identical. See my point?

It's kinda like everything else in life. Once you understand it it's just not that difficult. But until you understand it it's black magic.

I do understand your point and to that point I have been developing live sound products with as much AI as we can squeeze into it. We've still got a long way to go before the "spellchecker" for live sound is ready to go. It will be a great day when computers can handle all the mundane and allow the artists or engineers to have to deal with only artistic concerns.

[Bobby1Note]

Originally Posted by dboomer

You answered your own question. It depends on what you play through it. I guarantee you that there is some song that will make any one particular system sound great while making another sound not so good. IMHO the least smart thing you can do is to audition any speakers by playing your favorite songs (unless they are the only songs to ever be played through the speakers).

I don't listen for how it sounds "out of the box" I listen for its potential after I get it dialed in. EQ and "harshness" are very low on my list of what to listen for as they are easily adjusted. Articulation is up at the top of my list.

Don,

I've never once gone out specifically to audition a K-series box. The first time I saw one, was the K-8. The compact size attracted me, and the store clerk offered a demo, with HIS music. We could not get a transparent sound from that box, no matter what he tried.

I'm not listening for what these boxes do at their "extremes" when I'm listening by standing 6 feet away from them, in a tiny store,,,, I'm listening for vocal clarity above all else. I virtually always ask for "live" jazz recordings,,,, Diana Krall,,, Nora Jones, etc., and not "rock". At that point, I'm not asking the clerk to "crank it to 11" because it's pointless in that scenario. If I were listening in a very large showroom, where I could put some distance between myself and those boxes, that might be a different story.

Originally Posted by dboomer

Well what's your definition of success? For most of us this is a business and making money with our tools is out objective.

Stuck on a desert island I could do a successful show with any number of speakers. Would you be willing to bet your life that you could pick out speaker A or speaker B once they were professionally setup? I wouldn't. I think people here too many logos and not enough tools.

Don,

The original question had nothing to do with "success",,, nor the profitability of selling and renting speakers. It was about "why doesn't the K-series offer a passive box?" Personally, I don't think the actives sound good to start with, and selling "passives" would force QSC to disclose the true parameters of the components in those boxes. That would "kill" their 1000w marketing "schtik". Someone here, a while back, posted that the HF driver was actually a 25 watt unit. That begs the question; why a 500w amp-module, on a 25w driver, if not solely for marketing????? They're not "selling" these boxes to electrical engineers,,, they're "selling" them to John Q. Public.

Now, I've also seen here at HC and other sites, several people commenting on how the K-12's didn't throw very well. They said they sounded OK when standing directly in front of them, but as they "walked" the room, they didn't sound good from any appreciable distance.

My personal impression, is that these boxes were designed specifically to "sell" in the average small music-store showroom. That 1000 watt "sticker" was merely the "hook and bait".

The bottom line for me is, I've never heard a pair sound good, no matter who ran the demo. Admittedly, my pro-sound and light dealer did a fairly decent demo for one of his clients, and I got to listen from 40 feet away, but it was a "disco" demo, over subs. The same client listened to some PRX's, which sounded more transparent and open.

[dboomer]

So did you ever buy a pair of pants that were too long and then had them cuffed?

When you think of it that way it opens up a lot more possibilities.

I'm not defending K series speakers. My company sells a direct competitor, which depending on the job can kick it's ass a lot of times. I'm just trying to demystify the process a bit.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by abzurd

This is where having a digital board with recording is handy. You can literally audition your own band through the system. I did that a few years ago at a store where they allowed me to bring in my board and my current subwoofer. Then last weekend I did the same with the FBT's I was auditioning.

Except that you are playing into personal tastes and can not identify specific problems that may have a solution that is beyond the tools you may have available, and without those tools you can not identify the potentially better soundig and functioning solution.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by dboomer

We've still got a long way to go before the "spellchecker" for live sound is ready to go. It will be a great day when computers can handle all the mundane and allow the artists or engineers to have to deal with only artistic concerns.

Spell checking in the hands of folks that do not understand the language ends up insertinbg a lot of wrong words that "spell" correctly but make the meaning less than worthless. It does make some users feel better about themselves of course. How about a context checker, something that checks the context of a proposed solution? (I know, that's MUCH harder )

[abzurd]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Except that you are playing into personal tastes and can not identify specific problems that may have a solution that is beyond the tools you may have available, and without those tools you can not identify the potentially better soundig and functioning solution.

I don't get this. It's all context and personal taste. How is playing a CD differ (which I do as well). I'm just saying being able to put the speakers "on task" is a great thing. Would you rather drive a race car you're looking at around the block of your neighborhood or on a race track?

Case in point. I didn't think the tiny @$$ FBT subs I recently auditioned were going to cut it. I put our actual kick drum through it and knew immediately and without question that it was going to do the job I needed it to. I liked it, ergo it works for me.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by abzurd

I don't get this. It's all context and personal taste. How is playing a CD differ (which I do as well). I'm just saying being able to put the speakers "on task" is a great thing. Would you rather drive a race car you're looking at around the block of your neighborhood or on a race track?

Case in point. I didn't think the tiny @$$ FBT subs I recently auditioned were going to cut it. I put our actual kick drum through it and knew immediately and without question that it was going to do the job I needed it to. I liked it, ergo it works for me.

Because you can not identify and thus correct time domain problems, are operating and making corrections to an open loop situation that bears only mild similarity to when you close the loop (with mice in the equation), etc.

[dboomer]

I can see it a couple of ways. If you are selecting speakers for your band than it would seem that the artists themselves should be the deciders on what sounds good/great based on their own material. If OTOH you are a sound provider and will need to work with many different sources it's a not such a good way to decide. However listening to someone else's band recorded who knows how may or may not tell you much.

You might also reasonable consider whether or not you might need other tools to tweak them or decide that you do will have access to those tools and will just have to do with them as is.

[dboomer]

I can see it a couple of ways. If you are selecting speakers for your band than it would seem that the artists themselves should be the deciders on what sounds good/great based on their own material. If OTOH you are a sound provider and will need to work with many different sources it's a not such a good way to decide. However listening to someone else's band recorded who knows how may or may not tell you much.

You might also reasonable consider whether or not you might need other tools to tweak them or decide that you do will have access to those tools and will just have to do with them as is.

[abzurd]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Because you can not identify and thus correct time domain problems, are operating and making corrections to an open loop situation that bears only mild similarity to when you close the loop (with mice in the equation), etc.

I think you've switched gears on the topic. I'm not talking about running a battery of tests on a bench or taking it for a 2 week trial to test in every situation imaginable. I'm simply saying if I have to walk into a (insert music store here) and listen to speakers then I'd prefer to bring in stuff I'm used to / sick of. At least I know how it sounds and have a baseline as to whether it sounds better or worse than what I'm used to. If I'm going to be using it for the exact same thing every single time (to reinforce my band) then if it sounds good doing that, then it's passed the test I needed it to pass. Whether you agree or not, I'll stand firm that it's better than letting the sales guy play "something" through it that they have laying around.

[Bobby1Note]

Originally Posted by dboomer

You answered your own question. It depends on what you play through it. I guarantee you that there is some song that will make any one particular system sound great while making another sound not so good. IMHO the least smart thing you can do is to audition any speakers by playing your favorite songs (unless they are the only songs to ever be played through the speakers).

I don't listen for how it sounds "out of the box" I listen for its potential after I get it dialed in. EQ and "harshness" are very low on my list of what to listen for as they are easily adjusted. Articulation is up at the top of my list.

Originally Posted by dboomer

So did you ever buy a pair of pants that were too long and then had them cuffed?

When you think of it that way it opens up a lot more possibilities.

I'm not defending K series speakers. My company sells a direct competitor, which depending on the job can kick it's ass a lot of times. I'm just trying to demystify the process a bit.

I understand your point, and I don't disagree. Maybe these boxes do sound better "live" too, I dunno. I've just not been impressed with any demo's that I've encountered "to date". I know there's a helluva lot of guys over at AGF's acoustic forum, that like the "K"'s, but for most of them, it's the only PA speaker they've ever owned or demo'ed. Many bought them over the internet (no demo), and they're going solely by "gushing/glowing" comments/reviews from other guys, who themselves never tried anything else. "This is the GREATEST speaker EVER" kinda thing.

[agedhorse]

It can sound good on open loop (playback) but be horrible close loop (with a mic) because of issues related to time domain problems. For example, a very narrow 6dB peak that is inaudable listening can cause difficult to resolve feedback issues. This is where a powered, (properly) processed spaker can excel.

Originally Posted by abzurd

I think you've switched gears on the topic. I'm not talking about running a battery of tests on a bench or taking it for a 2 week trial to test in every situation imaginable. I'm simply saying if I have to walk into a (insert music store here) and listen to speakers then I'd prefer to bring in stuff I'm used to / sick of. At least I know how it sounds and have a baseline as to whether it sounds better or worse than what I'm used to. If I'm going to be using it for the exact same thing every single time (to reinforce my band) then if it sounds good doing that, then it's passed the test I needed it to pass. Whether you agree or not, I'll stand firm that it's better than letting the sales guy play "something" through it that they have laying around.

[agedhorse]

The K series is a very good speaker. Bobby, you seem to be the only one who is struggling with this.

[Bobby1Note]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

The K series is a very good speaker. Bobby, you seem to be the only one who is struggling with this.

Andy, if that were the case, everybody here would be running those. I sure as heck don't see many.

Seriously Andy, and this goes back and relates directly to the OP's question; how would YOU go about marketing a "passive" K-Series, without directly (and negatively) exposing what constitutes the active box? You'd have to come up with an actual power-rating, or your service department would be piled to the ceiling with warranty returns. Are you going to tell Joe-Blow that it's ok to run a 500w amp into the hf driver?

How would anyone "market" a passive K series? I think that this is a conundrum QSC has already faced, and it explains why you don't see "passives"..

[Al Poulin]

Using identical power modules for both woofer and horn in all of the K models and simply applying proper processing to each was possibly more cost effective than designing two seperate amplifiers per K box.

At the same time, it gave the QSC marketing department the chance to boast that there was actually 1000 watts of power in these boxes, although they failed to mention that it would never be possible for the full 1000 watts to be used.

I didn't like the 1000 watt thing from day one as everyone seemed to have an instant erection for the K series - feeling that they would never run out of power or be able to limit these speakers. How wrong were they, especially with the Ks in DEEP mode.

Unfortunately, this led to most major manufacturers to magically boost their watt numbers as well to better compete - on paper with QSC. The Ks were still an important product in the story of powered speakers as their combined versatility, power, good looks and incredible warranty kind of raised the bar for other manufacturers.

Al