Live Sound & Production

[OneEng]

I recently bought a ZOOM R16 recorder (8 simultaneous inputs) to record our shows with (and maybe do a few demos too).

I hooked it up at last practice using the line outs on my MixWiz and found that even with the gain on the Zoom inputs all the way counter clockwise, I was still tickling the limiters on the inputs.  

There doesn't appear to be a PAD on the input of the Zoom (boy that would have been handy), and no way to tune down the line outs from the MixWiz.  

The options I have come up with so far:

1. Return it and get something else
2. Get line attenuators for all 8 lines
3. Mess up my mixer setup and lower the gain on all channels

On the positive side, the Zoom sounded very clean in its recording ability.  At practice, I was able to quickly make a decent mix out of the recording, apply a little verb to the vocals, and play back our music making it sound almost indistinguishable from the original performance.

I also took the SD card out and was able to very quickly put the files on the computer and edit in my DAW. It appears on the DAW that the limiter lights were not lying.  Strong kick hits, bass slaps, and loud portions of the vocals all clipped digitally.  I would say that the amount of clipping in the actual recording was way lower than what the limit lights would have led me to believe (which I sort of figured since the playback sounded pretty good).

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[StratGuy22]

What about th headphone jack? It would have a volume knob...

[OneEng]

That would only have the stereo mix, not all 8 input tracks.

[twostone]

 Might check this out from A&H http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/pages/ProductsListing.aspx?CatId=ICE16

[Bobby1Note]

OneEng,

Last night I was reading about a similar issue with the ZOOM H4n, at SFN;

http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/6203-zoom-h4n-recorder.html

[OneEng]

Well, looking a little closer at the specs and it looks like the Zoom R16 has a max input of 4db.

I generally setup the gain so that the max transient goes to around 6-8 db, so I guess it makes sense that I am getting clipping on the input of the R16.

Where do you guys set your gain?  On my MixWiz, 6-8db is about 3/4 into the yellow VU meter.

I think that if I were to set the gain so that the max was closer to 0-2 (near the green to yellow on the VU meter), it would keep this from happening.

Are there any adverse effects to the live sound from setting the gain like this?

[Reson8tor]

Zoom recorders are notorious for having line inputs designed for "consumer line input" (-10) and overloading when fed a +4 signal from pro gear.

If you're not using the channel inserts, then what about tapping into the channel inserts with a shorted 1/4" TRS insert cable? You can get those pre-made from HOSA, or make them up yourself. The signal will still run through the channel as usual, you're just gettin a tap for recording. This also gets you a clean signal pre-FX and EQ (I think?) which gives you more flexibility for mixdown, later on.

I use the HOSA cables on the inserts of my Soundcraft MFXi8 to make rehearsal recordings and it works fine. I'm using gear that accepts a +4 signal without problems, but the signal coming off the inserts is lower level anyway (usually), so it should work on Zoom gear. You can try it with just one shorted cable to see if it works.

[OneEng]

I checked out the more expensive Tascam db24 and it only accepts +2db max, so this doesn't appear to be just Zoom.

I just received a TRS 8 channel snake.  I'll give it a try.

[OneEng]

Also, the input impedance is very different when using ballanced vs unballanced 1/4.  Unballanced it is 50K and ballanced it is 1K on the zoom.

[dcastar]

I use the ZOOM R16.... don't have much problem recording with it.   Just make sure you have your gain structures set on the MixWiz.

Either that, or... Allen & Heath is now coming out with the ICE-16.     Looks to be a really great product.

http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=ICE16&ProductId=ICE16

[StratGuy22]

I guess run all your mic gains lower, use the zoom as a guide, and the. Have your master louder...

[agedhorse]

A couple of things...

The balanced input is looking for a mic as a source, while I prefer about 3k as a mic input impedance, 1k is going to be plenty fine as well. For line input, 50k is common. I also suspect that the 50k line input Z is part of a pad network that feeds the internal head amp, and 50k//1k is a 34dB difference between mic and line in a pad configuration making it a likely reason.

If you are having an issue with too much level, you can build 12dB of pad into the send connectors using 22k series element and 4.7k shunt element. Using 1/8 watt resistors there's plenty of room. This is a simple -10 to +4dB conversion.

[OneEng]

Thanks Andy.

I hadn't even thought about why the impedance changed from ballanced to unballanced :catfrustrated:

I bought the ballanced 1/4" snake with the idea that it would be more resistant to noise.  The last recording I did was with a borrowed 1/4" snake that was unballanced.

So I could have created even more of a problem than I started with!

On the home made gain reduction pad .....

So you are suggesting that I put them into my MixWiz?  If so, then you are saying that the 4.7K goes between the two ballanced outs and then a pair of 22K's in series on the output lines?

[VanHalen]

I record live bands off of my MixWizard into a M-Audio Microtrack II recorder all the time and it sounds great. Here's the trick... use the two AB Out jacks to feed the recorder. This is your front-of-house mix, and you can set its volume from the AB Out volume knob just above the main sliders. I set mine at about 9 o'clock (one quarter volume) and adjust my recorder so it doesn't go into the red. It makes great recordings!

Just make sure to set the detented switch to the up position for ALT LR OUT.

[VanHalen]

You will probably need a different recorder if you want to do multi-track recordings unless you can find a way to attenuate all eight direct outs.

[VanHalen]

SHURE A15AS

In-line Switchable Attenuator

The Shure A15AS Switchable In-Line Attenuator reduces the level of any balanced microphone or line-level signal by 15, 20, or 25 dB. It is specially suited to reducing the level of a high-output microphone to prevent it from overloading the microphone input of a mixer or recorder in applications with high sound pressure levels. In addition, the A15AS may be used to reduce the level of a line-level mixer output to prevent overloading the aux-level input of a recorder.

The A15AS is equipped with a female 3-pin XLR connector on the input side, and a male 3-pin XLR connector on the output side. Attenuation is controlled by a three-position slide switch. The A15AS allows phantom power to pass through from the mixer to the microphone, so it can be used with condenser microphones.

[OneEng]

So far I have the following things to try:

1. Lower the gain on all channels so the line-out's aren't so hot
2. Possibly stick with unballanced 1/4" snake to keep the input of the Zoom less sensitive
3. Create my own attenuator
4. Utilize ballanced cables only partially plugged into the MixWiz to get a cooler output

Another thought.  Currently, only the bass is being compressed.  I could lightly compress the other channels to keep the peaks out of the line out (and out of the mix in general).

[agedhorse]

Are the Zoom inputs mic in or line in?, and is there a switch to change?

My comments were assuming that like many consoles, the line in is balanced and feeds the mic in post phantom power and uses a standard attenuator inside the head amp stage.

If you are stuck with feeding a mic in, you may be better using unbalanced line level connections.

I'm not exactly sure where this is going wrong.

[Pro Sound Guy]

You said....I think that if I were to set the gain so that the max was closer to 0-2 this would solve the issue.

Indeed you have hit the nail on the head.  Run the output of the Mixwiz so your hitting Zero (unity)

Keep in mind this is zero's and one's and not tape saturation

Very simple fix for a seemingly complex issue.

[OneEng]

---

agedhorse wrote:

Are the Zoom inputs mic in or line in?, and is there a switch to change?

My comments were assuming that like many consoles, the line in is balanced and feeds the mic in post phantom power and uses a standard attenuator inside the head amp stage.

If you are stuck with feeding a mic in, you may be better using unbalanced line level connections.

I'm not exactly sure where this is going wrong.

---

The inputs are "combo" inputs with no switch to change.  The "gain" knob on the recorder goes from "Line" to "Mic".

There is only phantom power availible on 2 channels and it is switchable for that pair of inputs.

I am only using the line outs from the MixWiz so there are no mics being plugged into the recorder.

According to the some information in the Zoom manual, the peak lights flickering a little is OK, but the meter bridge showing any red is bad.  Another option I have looked at is that the recorder can be setup to compress the input before recording it to a track .... so as long as there is some headroom beyond the red "peak" light, this would work.

Is there anything wrong with setting up the gain on my MixWiz channels so that the maximum transient only gets me to ~0-2db?  I think this would also solve the problem since the line outs would be cooler.