Live Sound & Production

[Brave Ulysses]

Hello Live Performance forum.  I haven't played in a band in about 5 years, but looks like I just pulled down a gig in March with some guys I met earlier this winter.  We're a 3 piece 'geezer' classic rock group, playing songs from the 60's to the 80's.  Each of us has at least 30 years experience on the local bar scene level - nothing special, just guys who miss playing out.

The club we've booked is not huge, maybe 200 capacity in the room we're playing. I used to play this joint using a couple 15" cabs on sticks (EV or PV) 1 or two subs (Yorkville powered), + monitors.  Used about 5 mics on the drums, ran bass direct, mic on the guitar amp.

The club owner told me that he's got one of those new Bose PAs.  He didn't know the specifics, but I gather it's the L1 or a variant.  He just knows that he paid 2 grand for it, and that all I need to bring is a mixer.  He said he was tired of bands playing too loud and this is his way of controlling the volume. 

He doesn't book entertainment every weekend, and it looks like just acoustic acts will be featured on weekends before we play, so I don't think I'll learn much from watching others use this setup.

So anyone use this kind of PA for a band before?  I'm hoping that the way you hook a mixer up would be fairly conventional. Do I need monitors?  Would you mic the drums, bass, guitar, or just play a bit louder than usual and rely on the PA for vocals only?  I'm out of my comfort zone on this one.  Any advice would be appreciated.

[Drummer44]

I've jammed with some guys who use an L1 of some sort (a single array tower, maybe 1 or 2 bass modules, and it's NOT the compact model).

Electronic drums, three+ guitars, bass, keys, some additional electronic percussion, plus 5-6 vocals, all through a relatively large mixer (maybe 32 channels?).

The system seems to handle the range of input reasonably well. Loud and with decent tone in that small room; no info on how much L1 (how many towers, subs) would be required to cover a venue of 200, though...

-D44

[Brave Ulysses]

Thanks for that - if 200 show up, it would be considered a stellar evening - I'd be happy with half that many. I guess I will plan on putting instruments thru the PA. So I take it that group didn't need a separate monitor system?

[Drummer44]

It was too small a room to need separate monitors, but the array tower was facing the musicians so it was mostly acting as monitor anyway.  Can't say how it'd work in a larger, open room with warm bodies out there... and it'd also likely depend on the number and placement of the towers relative to musicians and audience.

Could you take your own monitors in case you find them necessary?

-D44

[Tomm Williams]

I mix on one of the Bose systems for the local symphony. You just hook it to your mixer like any other powered system. As fas as do you need monitors? hard for me to answer that. The Bose does have this "Surround Sound" kind of quality (which is a two edge sword) All I can say is the players in the symphony have no complaints about hearing each other but that's not your situation. The system does actually sound pretty good.

[Brave Ulysses]

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Drummer44 wrote:

It was too small a room to need separate monitors, but the array tower was facing the musicians so it was mostly acting as monitor anyway.  Can't say how it'd work in a larger, open room with warm bodies out there... and it'd also likely depend on the number and placement of the towers relative to musicians and audience.

Could you take your own monitors in case you find them necessary?

-D44

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Yes I could.  I'm already happy that I'm not carting around the sub and front cabs.  an amp rack and 3 monitors isn't too much to ask.  thanks!

[n8cJohn]

I've probably got as much experience as anyone here with the L1 systems with a rock band in a club setting.  My band uses them exclusively - and we love them. 

That being said - I'd have reservations about using the L1 approach - fresh off the street so to speak.  I'd really have reservations about trying to funnel a large number of inputs into a single L1 - they are simply not desigened for that.  Just like any system - there is a learning curve towards optimization.  It is probably a desparate act of the managment to try and foist these upon the performing acts.

If you are going to be forced into this - and you have any specific questions - I would be happy to help you work your way through.  You can post questions here - or send me a PM.

For the record - my 4 pc band uses three L1s, three T1s, 8 B1s and two A1s.  We play venues that seat upwards of 350 and are occaisionally asked to turn down.  The only backline that we use is the lead guitar player who uses a Fender combo amp - probably in the 50W range.  The bass player and I (r. guitar/lead vocals) go direct.  Drummer only mic's the kick.  We also use the system outdoors - and it does well.

Best of luck to you.

[Brave Ulysses]

Thanks for the offer n8cJohn. It is my intent to get over to the club sometime this month to see what he's really got. I will PM you after I do the recon, and hopefully you'll be able to get me through this. If we end up using the L1 exclusively for vocals, so be it - that's kind of how we did things when I started playing (crank up the backline to match the drums, and hope the vocals can be heard thru the PA)

[agedhorse]

an L1 and 1 or 2 bass modules would IME be less than acceptable for anything rock oriented with a band. Maybe with 4 L1 modules and 8 bass modules deployed as intended might be ok, but that's not what it appears you will be getting into. My suggestion, give it a try with vocals only the first time. That way, you don't end up with a total train wreck if things don't go as well as they "suggest".

[Brave Ulysses]

that's the plan. like when mcgyver creates a fax maching using duct tape and a paperclip - you work with what you have. i once played a multi-band benefit where the house pa was a couple of shure vocal master columns and lived to tell about it. (but those actually sounded decent)

[ChiroVette]

In my experience you can make almost anything sound "pretty decent" if you are playing a small place and keep your stage volume under control.

I have played though crap at times in my life, and when you take down the volume a lot, you can make the most out of what you have. unfortunately, most bands do just the opposite. They take mediocre or low end gear and drive it like crazy until it screeches, whines, and distorts. Then they blame the PA system for why their band sounds like shit.

I firmly belive, and have proved this live, that if you have a good band that listens to each other on stage, you can take a $1K PA system and get by unscathed. It won't give you a great mix, obviously, but if you don't push the low end gear, it will actually sound "all right."

[sibyrnes]

As a side project, I play in a classic/country rock band with a guitar player that has the Bose L1s, so that's what we use.  The subs are worthless if you want any kick or bass in the mains, so we stack them on my PRX618-XLFs - one per side.  With those subs, they sound pretty good and we have gotten many compliments on our sound.  They are not my first choice, but they work if you combine them with some decent subs.

[chrispeters]

a full band thru that tube will be an awful experience lol .

I owned the model 2 for a couple of months , just as a solo act with backing tracks ,

vocal effects on the tonematch are horrendous , the system itself is great for tiny venues with about 50 people in , once you get in a bigger room though and try to turn up a bit , it totally craps out . At times i could even hear my backing track underneath my vocals fading in and out where the limiter was kicking in , very annoying. a couple of 12 inch 300 watt speakers on sticks go MUCH louder.

i lasted 2 months before i sold the lot .. it is a monitor system one for EACH member of the band . thats what it is intended for and is good at .for FOH they are useless..the Fohhn Line array though is  a whole new ball game ... hear it to believe it .. wish i had 6 grand for it though lol

[abzurd]

As mentioned, prepare to be underwhelmed to pissed and don't plan on hearing yourself. The implementation of the "system" is completely wrong. We were forced into using 2 of these for a 5 pc band and it was a nightmare. I grabbed a single Yorkville NX550P, a single 12" traditional cabinet, out of the trunk at the first break...... The second break the staff approached and asked what we did to make it sound so good!

[scoot13]

At least you are on a level playing field there. If every band that plays there uses the Bose system, then he is used to hearing that quality of sound. Just go in and try to get the best sound you can without over-driving the system and you will probably get plenty more gigs there.

He might have some regular drinkers (that keep his doors open) that really don't care how good the PA sounds, they just don't want it very loud.

I would just play the gig, do what you can, see how it goes, and decide if you wanna play there again. If I developed a good relationship, I might try to bring in a little "extra" gear in the future, gig by gig.

scoot

PS My experience with the Bose has been excellent. Don't pan or crossover anything!

[wasRbts]

I totally agree that the solution to working with an inadequate rig is to "turn down". This is great advice.

[Brave Ulysses]

For those who care - I said I would follow up with a report on how this show played out.  The short answer is that we made it through the gig without any major malfunctions, the club owner was happy; there was a decent sized crowd that stayed until closing, and the people I talked to had complimentary things to say about the band’s performance, and the sound in general.

Here are the details.

As it turned out, incorporating the Bose PA was the least of the hurdles we faced.  It was the location and configuration of the Stage that gave us fits.  3 foot high, long and narrow, against the wall in the middle of a long narrow room, facing the bar.  In essence, the drummer was at  the left end of the stage facing the front of the room, the bassist in front of him, and me (guitar) in front of the bassist.  Guitar and bass amps were against the wall facing the bar.

I used the Bose set up (L1 with the B2 sub) on stage left (near the drummer) facing the bar, and used a JBL 15 cab for stage right facing the front of the room.  The club owner wasn’t around when we were setting up, and didn’t seem to mind or notice we had brought in the additional PA cab.

He did ask us to turn down once in the first set – and honestly the bassist was really too loud anyway – so I had him back off and we were good to go.  As several of you mentioned - keeping the stage volume at a level where we could hear each other was the key.  I ran a touch of guitar thru the monitors and PA, keeping my amp volume very low.  We did have a mic on the kick and line in run from the bass, but didn’t send either thru the mains or monitors.  We also had 3 vocal mics live all night.

The Bose tower did act as a monitor for me, but I still had a wedge that I and the bassist shared, and another pointed at the drummer.  Remarkably – there was not one second of feedback heard all night – even when setting this Frankenstein up.

There wasn’t a ‘dance floor’ per se, but a number of folks were dancing stage left (behind the drummer) in front of the dart boards (luckily no one was playing that night).  There were 70-80 people in the room we were playing at any given time, a bunch of people in the adjoining pool room, and another crowd in the outside “smoker’s tent” attached to the pool room.

 So there’s no way for me to know how it really sounded – I’m sure the mix on the left,  center, and right we’re all radically different – but since the band could concentrate on hearing each other and playing and singing our parts correctly – the resulting ‘tightness’ seemed to have trumped everything else.

The club owner indicated that he would be calling us for a return engagement, but given what we know now, I’m not sure we’d take it.  (hauling all our gear up and down the narrow steps leading to the oddball stage was no picnic for a trio whose collective age is over 150 years).

[Craigv]

I'm glad it worked out. IMHO if the venue owner or person in charge has taken action because of prior bands being too loud, that's a pretty solid indicator that you want to turn down no matter what gear is being used. In those cases I'd rather err on the soft side and be asked to turn up, rather than being labeled as just another too-loud band. I don't really think the Bose system is bad at all if it's used for solo and duo acts at moderate volumes. I've heard it used this way for quite a few years now, and think the concept has proven itself. Would I try it with a metal act or use one system for a rock band? Hell no. But I also don't load 50 sheets of 3/4" plywood on the roof of a minivan and attempt to drive home with it. The right tool for the job, and all that.

[lonotes]

Craigv wrote: But I also don't load 50 sheets of 3/4" plywood on the roof of a minivan and attempt to drive home with it.

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[Craigv]

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lonotes wrote:

Craigv wrote: But I also don't load 50 sheets of 3/4" plywood on the roof of a minivan and attempt to drive home with it.

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I was kindof hoping someone would dig up that pic of the tiny red subcompact in a parking lot, with the roof nearly crushing under the weight of a pallet-load of plywood, all held up there with twine......