Live Sound & Production

[Bobby1Note]

Louis,

Since you've already got a pair of 310a's, wouldn't it be wiser to rent the sub first, and try that with your existing pair of 310a's? Push that rig a bit harder than usual, just to see if it performs to your expectation. If they start to get a little ragged when pushed, then the DSR's may be a better fit for you.

This is a bitch, ain't it? Trying to bridge the two worlds of compact/ultra-portable gigs, with more ambitious projects.

BTW, I may be buying an MFXi-12 myself. I'm off to see my dealer tomorrow, and if he makes me a good offer, I'll probably go for it.

[Louis Schwartz]

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Bobby1Note wrote:

Louis,

Since you've already got a pair of 310a's, wouldn't it be wiser to rent the sub first, and try that with your existing pair of 310a's? Push that rig a bit harder than usual, just to see if it performs to your expectation. If they start to get a little ragged when pushed, then the DSR's may be a better fit for you.

This is a bitch, ain't it? Trying to bridge the two worlds of compact/ultra-portable gigs, with more ambitious projects.

BTW, I may be buying an MFXi-12 myself. I'm off to see my dealer tomorrow, and if he makes me a good offer, I'll probably go for it.

---

That does make some sense.  I also need to try putting the 310a's through their paces as wedges.  Right now the best monitoring I've achieved has been with the YX10s serving as wedges and my two 310a's serving as back fills.  This is at gigs in a reasonably sized social hall/audiotrium with a decent-sized stage and the YX15's serving as FOH.  Getting a a good, clear monitor mix to all 7 members of the band has not always been easy, especially for the hand-drummers, but when I've been able to use two wedges and two backfills (with that cheap little Kustom PW50 as a near-field for the dummers) it's been good. I suspect that the 310a's will do better as wedges than the YX10s, but I suspect that I'll still ideally need two more as backfills as well. 

So, the two options for this bout of upgrading will be either something like a pair of DXR's (FOH) and 4 310a's (2 for wedges and 2 as backfills) or 6 310a's (2 for FOH--with or without subs--2 for wedges and 2 as backfills).  Either way, getting another pair now won't be a waste, I think.  

And, you're right, it's a bitch!  Especially when disposable income isn't as abundant as I'd like.  And the band, as I've said, is not making money (not what it's about), so I have to make use of whatever small bits of extra income come my way.  I'd like this bout of spending to be more long-term smart than the last one was. 

Louis

[Louis Schwartz]

I'm probably going to head over to my local Sam Ash this weekend with one of my 310a's and try it out in the store over one of the EV ZXA1-Subs they have out on display right now. So I'll see how that combination sounds (at least in-store). Might be able to compare it with a DXR15, too.

In the meantime, anyone have any reasons why I should or should not consider a ZED 16FX instead of an MFXi12? The ZED is a little bigger and heavier (and more expensive) and it has 2 fewer XLR inputs, but it's also a little roomier for the hand and eye in mid gig on stage, has separate volume controls for the Left and Right master outputs, one more aux, longer faders, the familiar (for me) ZED layout and effects, and A&H build and reliability. The ZED also has a USB port, but that's not really all that important to me. The MFXi12 has subgroup functions I will probably never use. Any thoughts?

Louis

[Bobby1Note]

OK Louis, good luck with that audition. (310a's and EV sub). Who knows, maybe you'll come home with some DSR-15's too. b  Sometimes, a wholesale change is better than a minor improvement.

I can't comment much on the ZED16FX, other than to say it's pretty bulky considering the number of inputs you get. You might also want to double check that aux-send count, you said 3 auxes, but I think one of those is your FX send (2 aux,oneFX)

BTW, I ended up buying an MFXi-8 today. I got a helluva deal on it (store demo/ full warranty/ $385. The cheapest I've seen them is $499. I also picked up another mic,,an ,AKG D5 super-cardioid.

[Louis Schwartz]

You're right, Aux 3 on the ZED 16FX is for the FX.  Let me know what you think of your new MXFi8!  Great deal!  Hope I do as well when I buy my own new mixer!

Louis

[Bobby1Note]

I've loved my EFX-8 for the last four years, and the MFXi is basically the same, with a few added features (HPF's,Illuminated mute buttons, 2 aux-sends, 2 groups, a few minor upgrades to the master section, better metering. Footprint is 15" x15.5". 8 monoXLR channels, 2 stereo channels, and stereo returns.

I also damned near came home with an A&H GL-2400-32 channel console, in a rolling road-case, w/dog-house, and twin 18" LED light fixtures. It looked fresh out of the box, and I could of had it for $1k. It may still be available. That's eating me up right now. I'm tempted to go for it, and sell the GL-2400-24ch that I bought last year.

I think I'm gonna go bang my head on my desk for a while.

[StratGuy22]

It's nice having some consistency for monitors. What about YX10's for everyone? I have YX10's and YX12's for monitors. The nice thing is a YX12 is a YX12 is a YX12. They don't need to be in a specific order or pair up with a specific amp.

Makes setup a little bit easier.

[Louis Schwartz]

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StratGuy22 wrote:
It's nice having some consistency for monitors. What about YX10's for everyone? I have YX10's and YX12's for monitors. The nice thing is a YX12 is a YX12 is a YX12. They don't need to be in a specific order or pair up with a specific amp.

Makes setup a little bit easier.

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For a while I used three YX10s.  They work OK as individual monitors, but I balked at using seven of them!  I sold one, and since then have found that with two as wedges in front of the band, my two RCF 310a's fill in the sound for everyone nicely as back fills, with a near-field monitor adding just a little more for the two hand-drummers.  I like the sound of the 310a's much, much better than the YX10s, which can be a little harsh and have comparatively little low-end, so I'm inclined to sell my remaining two and get another pair of 310a's.  At least that's my current plan.

Louis 

[StratGuy22]

Nice. Matching 310's work as well! Keeps everything consistent...

[Louis Schwartz]

That's what I'm coming to realize!

Louis

[Bobby1Note]

They're pretty popular as well, Louis. That translates to good resale value.

[OneEng]

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Louis Schwartz wrote:

That's what I'm coming to realize!

Louis

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There is a good case for just getting another pair of RCF310a's, but I would still highly recommend giving the ZXA subs a listen.  The 310's simply don't have any bottom punch for music playback or keyboard.  You may not have missed it in the past because you didn't have it, but I think you will be shocked at the difference when using subs.

1. The bottom punch will come to life
2. The 310a's will be able to cover a much larger area without attempting to cover the bottom as well
3. The system will still be scaleable from a very very small single 310 to a pretty decent sized two 310's over two ZXA1-Sub's.

This would be the setup I believe would give you the most for your money and adhear to your goals.

As Bobby1Note stated, the DXR15's are another incredible speaker for your stated purposes, but you would lose the tiny footprint of the 310's when you don't need subs.

Go give em a listen and let us know what you find 

[Louis Schwartz]

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OneEng wrote:

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Louis Schwartz wrote:

That's what I'm coming to realize!

Louis

---

There is a good case for just getting another pair of RCF310a's, but I would still highly recommend giving the ZXA subs a listen.  The 310's simply don't have any bottom punch for music playback or keyboard.  You may not have missed it in the past because you didn't have it, but I think you will be shocked at the difference when using subs.

1. The bottom punch will come to life
2. The 310a's will be able to cover a much larger area without attempting to cover the bottom as well
3. The system will still be scaleable from a very very small single 310 to a pretty decent sized two 310's over two ZXA1-Sub's.

This would be the setup I believe would give you the most for your money and adhear to your goals.

As Bobby1Note stated, the DXR15's are another incredible speaker for your stated purposes, but you would lose the tiny footprint of the 310's when you don't need subs.

Go give em a listen and let us know what you find 

---

This is on the agenda, too.  My goals are a little beyond my immediate finances, so I need to take it a step at a time.  Right now, it looks to me like the best system for my purposes will be 3 pair of 310a's, a pair of ZXA1-Subs, and an MFXi12 mixer.  This would give me a pair of 310a's for wedges, a pair as back fills, and a pair for FOH (which could go either with or without the subs, depending on the venue).  This is likely to cover everything from my smallest to my largest (likely) gig (and as you note, I could evenutally add yet another pair of 310a's to double the FOH over the pair of subs for yet another notich if I ever find I need to).  I was going to give the 310a/ZXa1-sub combination a listen this weekend, but didn't get a chance.  I will eventually do that, and I'll also compare them with the DXR15s and maybe some other options before I make a final decision.  But right now, I've only got the cash for the MFXi12 and another pair of 310a's, and I think these will be necessary whatever decision I finally make about the "subs vs. bigger speakers" question.  I'll need to sell some things to get either subs or bigger FOH speakers. 

The main thing is I feel I've got a coherent plan!

Louis

[Bobby1Note]

OneEng,

FWIW, my dealer has now taken on Yamaha/Nexo in his product line-up. I may be going to the store early this week, so I'll give the DSR's a listen. So far, I've only heard a very brief session with pre-recorded music through the 15"s.

[OneEng]

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Louis Schwartz wrote:

---

OneEng wrote:

---

Louis Schwartz wrote:

That's what I'm coming to realize!

Louis

---

There is a good case for just getting another pair of RCF310a's, but I would still highly recommend giving the ZXA subs a listen.  The 310's simply don't have any bottom punch for music playback or keyboard.  You may not have missed it in the past because you didn't have it, but I think you will be shocked at the difference when using subs.

1. The bottom punch will come to life
2. The 310a's will be able to cover a much larger area without attempting to cover the bottom as well
3. The system will still be scaleable from a very very small single 310 to a pretty decent sized two 310's over two ZXA1-Sub's.

This would be the setup I believe would give you the most for your money and adhear to your goals.

As Bobby1Note stated, the DXR15's are another incredible speaker for your stated purposes, but you would lose the tiny footprint of the 310's when you don't need subs.

Go give em a listen and let us know what you find 

---

This is on the agenda, too.  My goals are a little beyond my immediate finances, so I need to take it a step at a time.  Right now, it looks to me like the best system for my purposes will be 3 pair of 310a's, a pair of ZXA1-Subs, and an MFXi12 mixer.  This would give me a pair of 310a's for wedges, a pair as back fills, and a pair for FOH (which could go either with or without the subs, depending on the venue).  This is likely to cover everything from my smallest to my largest (likely) gig (and as you note, I could evenutally add yet another pair of 310a's to double the FOH over the pair of subs for yet another notich if I ever find I need to).  I was going to give the 310a/ZXa1-sub combination a listen this weekend, but didn't get a chance.  I will eventually do that, and I'll also compare them with the DXR15s and maybe some other options before I make a final decision.  But right now, I've only got the cash for the MFXi12 and another pair of 310a's, and I think these will be necessary whatever decision I finally make about the "subs vs. bigger speakers" question.  I'll need to sell some things to get either subs or bigger FOH speakers. 

The main thing is I feel I've got a coherent plan!

Louis

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Fair enough Louis.

It doesn't look like there is much price difference between a pair of 310's and a pair of ZXA1-Sub's.  You could sell off your passive gear and amps, keep the 312a for monitor duty ... but then again, if you were planning on spending less and needed the cash from the sell of the 312a, then it would be a bigger out of pocket spend for you.

You are on the right track either way

[Bobby1Note]

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The main thing is I feel I've got a coherent plan!

Louis

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Louis, as long as you're objective in your listening tests, you'll know what the next step is. What "looks good on paper", may not provide the end-result you're looking for. Are you planning on doing any outdoor gigs? If so, I'd personally be very skeptical about using 310a's and SX1a sub as a FOH foundation. It's a tough call for sure, when "portability" is a main consideration.

[Louis Schwartz]

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Bobby1Note wrote:

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The main thing is I feel I've got a coherent plan!

Louis

---

Louis, as long as you're objective in your listening tests, you'll know what the next step is. What "looks good on paper", may not provide the end-result you're looking for. Are you planning on doing any outdoor gigs? If so, I'd personally be very skeptical about using 310a's and SX1a sub as a FOH foundation. It's a tough call for sure, when "portability" is a main consideration.

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It is a tough call, but the fact is it's very unlikely that we'd ever be called on to do and provide our own sound for an outdoor show that required more than a 310a over a ZXA1-sub on either side.  If something like that came up, it would have to pay enough to make renting extra equipment feasible.

Louis 

[RoadRanger]

I'm kinda wondering why you like "backfills". Do yous guys have your ears in the back of your heads or ? Putting speakers behind your mics generally increases the probability of feedback. Sidefills are usully a better choice.

[Louis Schwartz]

I think I'm just misusing the term. The speakers are indeed at the sides when I use them this way, but pointing at the rear section of the stage where the drummers, the electric guitarist and the bass player all stand or sit.  At the front of the stage we have me on acoustic guitar and vocals, flanked by the accordion player and the clarinet player, with wedges in front of us (I use a magnetic pickup in one guitar and a sbt/mic blender in the other with the mic usually turned down, and stratigically placed mics on booms for the acc. and clar.).  At the volumes we play, this works pretty well.  In fact, at the last larger gig we played I was even able to place the the side-fills a little farther back than usual and turn them slightly forward to give a little more fullness to the monitor sound of the YX10 wedges for the 3 of us in front.  No feedback problems.  I could have finessed this more if I had had separage control of the mix and the volume levels of the wedges and the side fills.  That's one reason I'm looking forward to getting the MFXi12.  

This is at least the workable solution I've come to through trial and error over the past few years, but I'm always open to suggestions if you have any ideas.   

Louis

[OneEng]

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Bobby1Note wrote:

OneEng,

FWIW, my dealer has now taken on Yamaha/Nexo in his product line-up. I may be going to the store early this week, so I'll give the DSR's a listen. So far, I've only heard a very brief session with pre-recorded music through the 15"s.

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The DSR and DXR are quite different lines  If he has both, it would be interesting to get your read on them!