Live Sound & Production

[Louis Schwartz]

For a while now I’ve been in the process of slowly improving and expanding my band’s PA system (as I’ve learned more about running sound, and as I’ve been able to scrape together the money).  Right now, I find myself with some money to spend, and I’d like to take another step or two in this incremental process. So I’m seeking advice.  I have about $1200 at my immediate disposal, and maybe up to another $1200 or so, depending on what I sell—if I sell anything.  So I’m seeking advice about what makes the most sense as an upgrade right now. What would address my most immediate needs, help me best at streamlining my set ups, and at improving the sound.

I apologize for the length of this post, but I thought I should err on the side of too much detail, rather than not enough.  Huge thanks in advance to anyone who has the time (and the patience and generosity) to help me think this through!!  I’m hoping some of you might enjoy the thought exercise.

The ensemble (7 musicians, playing eastern-European folk music):

3 vocals (1 lead and two backup)

Acoustic guitars (sent to the mixer from the DI out of a single Radial PZ-Pre)

1 electric guitar (played through a small combo amp, mic’d or not, depending on venue)

Keyboard Accordion (mic’d—1 mic on the keyboard side)

Clarinet (mic’d, or not depending on venue)

Electric or acoustic upright bass (either through a combo amp, DI’d the mixer, or both, depending on venue).

2 hand percussionists (on various middle-eastern drums) (mic’d or not, depending on venue. When they are mic’d, I’ve lately been using an AT 2050 set on a figure 8 pattern, set between them with the null spot aimed to reject the sound of a near-field monitor behind them).

When everything is going through the PA in one way or another, that’s 9 inputs minimum.  In most situations, however, I only need 5-7 inputs (see below).  Also, it’s high-energy, but not high volume music, so all those mics don’t usually cause feedback problems—although there are sometimes issues with stage volume affecting the clarity of the monitor sound (see below). 

The PA:

Mixers/amps:

1 Yorkville M810 (6 mono mic/line inputs and 2 mono mic/stereo line inputs—in effect, 8 mono inputs) ( http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=31&cat=13&id=266 )

1 Allen and Heath ZED 10FX (4 mono mic/line inputs and 2 stereo line inputs) ( http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=ZEDSeries&ProductId=ZED10FX )

1 Mackie 402-VLZ3 (2 mono mic/line inputs and 1 stereo line input) ( http://www.mackie.com/products/402vlz3/index.html )

(The stereo line inputs on these mixers are not much use to me, except for when I use one of the smaller mixers as a submixer into one of the larger ones.)

Speakers:

2 Yorkville YX15 ( http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=58&id=350)

2 Yorkville YX10 ( http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=58&id=348 )

2 RCF 310a (MKIII) (http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/pro-speaker-systems/art-series/art-310-a-mk-iii )

1 RCF 312a (MKII) (http://www.rcf.it/products/pro-speaker-systems/art-series/art-312-a )

1 Kustom PW50 (used as a near field monitor) ( http://www.powerwerks.com/page/PW50-20.aspx )

Stage or small gig combo amps:

1 Genz Benz Shenandoah ProLT ( http://www.genzbenz.com/img/manuals/gb/shenprolt_manual.pdf )

1 Peavey KB/a 60 ( http://www.peavey.com/assets/literature/manuals/kba60.pdf )

The bass-player and the electric guitar players have their own combo amps (sometimes the bass player uses the KB/a 60 for his upright).

I’m well set up with mics, stands, cables, DI’s, power strips and cords, etc.

How I’m presently using this stuff:

For our largest gigs right now, I use the following combination:

The amps in the M810 power the YX15s for FOH and the YX10s as floor wedges.

I take a line out of the monitor mix and send that to the RCF 310a’s and place them as back-fills (I can’t control the volume of the wedges and the back-fills independently from the board (on the M810, there’s only one global volume control for the monitor mix, whether it’s going out through the speaker or the line output), so I either have someone adjust the input sensitivity controls on the backs of the 310a’s—if that’s practical—or I just set the volume for the wedges, bring the back-fills up to an appropriate lower level, and then control the overall monitor volume from the board, hoping for the best).

The PW50 goes on a stand or chair behind the drummers as a near field monitor.

I can usually put everything but the bass through the M810, using all 8 mono mic inputs.  Even our biggest gigs have been small enough for the bass to go through a combo amp.  Most of the places we play that need more PA than this have their own PA’s with subs.  But having the bass go through a combo on stage does sometimes present a challenge when it comes to stage volume, especially on smaller stage-spaces where placing the bass amp and controlling it’s volume for both the house and the stage presents some difficulties.

For our much more common smaller gigs, I use the ZED10FX and the pair of RCF 310a’s.  I only put the vocals, acoustic guitar, and accordion into the PA. Everything else is loud enough to carry on its own (although I’ve been experimenting lately with mic’ing the electric guitar combo).  One problem here has been a shortage of inputs.  I can get away with using the 402VLZ3 as a submixer into one of the ZED’s stereo channels, and this gives me 6 mono inputs, but it’s awkward and gives me too many variables to think about when adjusting things on the fly during gigs.  It’s also tight, not allowing for adding a clarinet mic or a mic for a little extra sparkle from the top of a doumbek, etc.

Monitoring has been a challenge in some places, too, but I’ve been able to get away with either setting the 310a’s partially behind us to work as both FOH and as monitors (since our volume isn’t very high this usually works).  In some venues, I’ve been able to put the 310a’s forward as proper FOH speakers and use my Genz Benz ProLT and the little PW50 as back-fill monitors.  But some venues present complicated challenges because of tight space and oddly shaped rooms.  In one place, I use one speaker for FOH with the main mix from the ZED aimed at where most of the audience sits, and I put the other one up on top of a beverage refrigerator that’s behind the performing space (I kid you not), aimed partially toward the band and partially toward another section of the room.  I send it the ZED’s aux mix, so I can control its volume separately.  I also send the aux mix to the little PW50 (daisy-chained from the 310a on the fridge), again for an extra-near field monitor for the drummers (and in that situation it also backfills a little for everyone, along with the 310a on the fridge, which of course provides a fuller sound).  Controlling the volume of the bass and electric guitar combos in this and some other situations is also complicated.

I also use the 310as and the ZED10FX for small solo, duo and trio acoustic gigs, and they’re perfect for that (no upgrade necessary).

None of these setups, except the last one, is, as you can see, ideal, exactly, although I’m making them work, and I’ve been learning a lot in the process of improvising with what I have.  My last upgrade was the purchase of the 2 310a’s, which have been great.  Before that it was getting the ZED and the one 312a, which has been sitting unused since I bought the 310a’s.  The 402VLZ3 and the PW50 were cheap emergency purchases when I needed to solve my input and drummer monitoring problems quickly—there was an unexpected change in line-up and in the stage space at a gig.

Finally, the advice I'm seeking: 

So now, as I said, I have about $1200 at my immediate disposal, and maybe up to $2400 or so, depending on what I sell—if I sell anything.  So I’m seeking advice about the next step.

It seems to me clear that the first issue I need to address is inputs, and I need to balance the need for more of them with a need to keep the board as small and as portable as possible, given the fact that I need to use it myself on stages that can often be very cramped.  I also would like to move away from the Yorkville powered mixer/passive speaker setup and toward a fully powered speaker/passive mixer set up that can eventually replace the Yorkville system for larger gigs (this will involve getting more powered speakers—perhaps 2 of them, at least, larger and more powerful than the 310a’s or even the 312a—and perhaps also a sub or two).  But this is something I’ll ask about later.  Right now the mixer is my priority. 

I have come to know the ZED10FX pretty well, and I like it very much, so my first thought has been to get one of the larger ZEDs.  The problem is that the ZED mixer that’s the ideal size for me, physically, is the new ZED60-14FX (http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=ZEDSeries&ProductId=ZED6014FX), and it only has 8 mono inputs.   That’s going to be fine for most of our immediate small gigs, but falls short of my longer-term goals.  It’s also got the same limitation as the 10FX in terms of auxiliary sends (just one).  I could get 12 inputs by using the 10FX as a submixer into one of the 60-14FX’s stereo channels, but that gets complicated and doesn’t really solve the awkwardness problem.  IT also won’t give me the extra aux sends I’ll eventually need.  To get more inputs and also more auxes in the ZED universe, you have to jump from the ZED60-14FX to the ZED16FX ( http://www.allen-heath.com/uk/Products/Pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=ZEDSeries&ProductId=ZED16FX ), which has 10 mono inputs, 1 post fade, and 2 pre-fade auxes.  The problem with the ZED16FX, from my perspective is that it’s significantly bigger, maybe too big for comfort in the situations I usually find myself in (workable at those larger gigs, but not at the smaller ones).

So the other boards I’ve been looking at are the Soundcraft MFXi8 and 12 ( http://www.soundcraft.com/products/product.aspx?pid=156 ).  The MFXi12 presents some of the same size problems as the ZED16FX, but it’s a little smaller, has two more mono inputs, and it’s less expensive. But it’s also sort of crowded and complicated for on the fly sound mixing from the stage (the ZED16FX is bigger, but also a little more spacious). And the MFXi12 it’s so much smaller that it would be practical in many of my situations.  The MFXi8 is smaller and more manageable, but it’s one short of the inputs I’d need ideally for the powered speaker PA I hope eventually to put together.  The EFX mixers are another option, but one thing that I’ve come to really like on the ZED10FX are the HPFs on each channel, and the EFX mixers don’t have them.

So what would be your sage recommendation?

MFXi8 with submixer added when necessary (and worry about a bigger board when I actually upgrade to the powered speaker set up)?

ZED60-14FX with submixer added when necessary (and worry about a bigger board when I actually upgrade to the powered speaker set up)?

MFXi12 and just deal with the size and get used to the complicatedness?

ZED16FX and just deal with the size and get used to the complicatedness?

How serious are the reliability differences between the Soundcraft MFXi and the A&H ZED boards?  Are there other options out there worth considering?

If I got the ZED60-14FX, I could use that right away with no problem with the 310a’s for the vast majority of our gigs, which as I said are on the small side and certainly don’t require more than one monitor mix or more than 8 mono inputs.  That would be a significant upgrade for me right there.  But there’s also that idea I have of eventually putting together a larger, powered speaker PA to replace the Yorkville at our occasional larger gigs.  In that prospective situation, and I’m not that far away from having the money to start working toward it, I would need ideally at least 9 inputs (when the bass goes through the PA), and at least 2 aux sends would come in handy.  I wouldn’t necessarily need two different monitor mixes, but it would be nice to be able to independently control the volume of floor wedges and back-fills from the board.  I don’t think the ZED60-14FX offers any way of doing that, although let me know if I’m missing something. The ZED16FX and the MFXi mixers, of course, provide that possibility and a lot more.  Using the 10FX as a submixer into the ZED60-14FX would give me the inputs, but not the auxes; the ZED10FX into the MFXi8, would give me both, but it would be awkward.  The ZED16FX or the MFXi12 would give me all I’d want, but they’d be too big for the small gigs.  Do have I to resign myself to needing two mixers, perhaps both a ZED60-14FX and a ZED16FX—a fairly expensive proposition, even if I sell the 10FX (and less money for new speakers)? 

So what do you all advise?

Thanks in advance!

Louis

[OneEng]

Hey Louis,

This is one of the best laid out and explained posts I have had the pleasure to respond to

In reading between the lines of your requirements, what I am hearing is that you would like to simplify your rig as well as improve it.  With the budget you stated, this is completely within your budget.

Mixer:

Studio Live 16.0.2 ($1200.00).  This mixer has 12 mic inputs and plenty of other inputs along with 4 aux outs in addition to a seperate monitor output (and a seperate mono output with a seperate gain).  From here: http://www.presonus.com/uploads/products/1373/downloads/StudioLive1602_OwnersManual_EN5.pdf

Going digital will give you lots of flexibility that you didn't have before like built in compressors and gates for each channel, and recording capabilities straight to a computer from the mixer.  You can also see all inputs in real time through the full meter bridge (every channel has a VU meter like the one on your main for your ZED.  This is a really nice mixer and should completely fix your mixer issues and then some.

Speakers:

I would keep those RCF310a's.  Those are nice powered speakers and as you stated, work great for monitors and small gigs.  

I would recommend a pair of Yamaha DXR15's.  You can these for $700.00 each if you look around (ebay currently has this price with free shipping).  I know this puts you $200.00 over your stated budget, but it really seems like the best possible combination I could think of for your setup.  You can audition both this mixer and these speakers at pretty much any GC in the US.

[Bobby1Note]

Louis,

My first advice would be to post links to the products you're talking about, directly in your thread. It makes it much easier for people to see what you're talking about. That said, I'm pretty familiar with many of the products you've mentioned.

A simple response regarding which mixer you should choose, in my opinion anyway, requires a broader view of how you see you're future system evolution. As I understand your post, you're presently torn between "portability" vs "capability". In your case, I see "capability" as being the number of mono/XLR inputs and aux-sends.

If you're comfortable with 2 pre-fade aux-sends, then the Soundcraft MFXi-8 or 12 would probably be my choice. The ZED16-FX is physically larger I believe (didn't look), and  has 2 pre-fade aux-sends. EQ capability is similar (3-band/swept mid), but has fewer XLR in's.

Once you start looking at consoles the size of a ZED16FX  or MFXi-12, you really want to include the A&H MixWiz3 16;2 in your evaluation. The height of that board makes it kess portable, but you get direct outs, individual-channel  phantom power, line-input pads, 4-band EQ(dual swept mids). It's roughly 4 lbs heavier than the ZED 16FX, but is roughly twice the height. The input pod is rotatable, so you have flexibility in set-up.

The small format Soundcrafts are excellent sounding boards, with Lexicon FX. I have thre of them, a Compact-4, a Note-Pad 124FX, and an EFX-8. The EFX-8 in particular, is just a great lil' board for those "travel light" gigs. Mine's going on 6 years old, with never an issue. I transport it in a Gator G-Mix 15"x15" padded shoulder-bag. EQ sounds quite "musical", and graduates very nicely and predictably,,, much better than the NotePad for example,.

If your future needs include close-micing a drum-kit, then you definitely want to consider a 12-channel minimum. I get by with my EFX-8 for band practice, putting three mics on the drum-kit (kick, snare, rack-toms) In large rooms, that's simply not enough. (floor-toms and o'heads)

It all boils down to how far down the road you want to look, and what you eventually want to do with the board. (recording/direct-outs, etc).

[Shaster]

Louis, it sounds like you might be in Canada - if so, there are advantages to staying Yorkville for the most part.

IMO if you're staying Yorkville the next noticeable quality jump above the YX15's is quite large price and weight wise. As a for instance, I recently did a side by side (at an elementary school) with the YX15's and my e210's (one of my fav announcement speakers). At a third of the price the YX15's held their own.  No they aren't as good but they're also a third of the price and still get the job done. 

I might be tempted to trade in the YX15's, pick up a used/new pair of YX15P's and then go with one of your Soundcraft choices.  I've placed three Soundcraft E_ _ series in schools - so far so good.  I know the early models  had some sort of connector problem, But I think it's been addressed.  As well, assuming you buy from L&M you can get an extended warranty for two or three years.  By that time you might be ready for "the next step". 

So then you've got your very nice RCF's for smaller gigs and your YX15P's for larger gigs. Again if you want to spend more money on the NX55P's fine but you won't get much (if any) real performance (notice I mean real world performance not quality of sound). The NX55P's soound better, I just found they don't "perform" better. Again, if you're in Canada you can rent before you buy.

One factor to consider is that you've been used to having a built in EQ.  You might need to have an external one unless you've been running flat. Along those lines you could maybe find a used or discounted Yorkville MC12D.  So far, they've been a bit of an oddity and I don't think Yorkville has sold many - could be an opportunity for a deal.  http://www.long-mcquade.com/products/6265/Pro_Audio_Recording/Mixers/Yorkville_Sound/MC12D_12-Channe...

And finally yes, do get a mixerwith the channel HPF - it's worth it.  I tried a Soundcraft E.... without and switched to the other model that had them.

[Louis Schwartz]

---

OneEng wrote:

Hey Louis,

This is one of the best laid out and explained posts I have had the pleasure to respond to

In reading between the lines of your requirements, what I am hearing is that you would like to simplify your rig as well as improve it.  With the budget you stated, this is completely within your budget.

Mixer:

Studio Live 16.0.2 ($1200.00).  This mixer has 12 mic inputs and plenty of other inputs along with 4 aux outs in addition to a seperate monitor output (and a seperate mono output with a seperate gain).  From here: http://www.presonus.com/uploads/products/1373/downloads/StudioLive1602_OwnersManual_EN5.pdf

Going digital will give you lots of flexibility that you didn't have before like built in compressors and gates for each channel, and recording capabilities straight to a computer from the mixer.  You can also see all inputs in real time through the full meter bridge (every channel has a VU meter like the one on your main for your ZED.  This is a really nice mixer and should completely fix your mixer issues and then some.

Speakers:

I would keep those RCF310a's.  Those are nice powered speakers and as you stated, work great for monitors and small gigs.  

I would recommend a pair of Yamaha DXR15's.  You can these for $700.00 each if you look around (ebay currently has this price with free shipping).  I know this puts you $200.00 over your stated budget, but it really seems like the best possible combination I could think of for your setup.  You can audition both this mixer and these speakers at pretty much any GC in the US.

---

Thanks--and thanks so much for taking the time to read the post.  You're right about my wanting to streamline and improve the sound. I hadn't thought at all about making the jump to a digital mixer!  It's a slightly daunting thought, given that I'm still working on mastering my analogue boards (I've got the basics down--and I don't seem to be driving anyone out of the room--but mastery is of course another story).  But it's something worth thinking about, given that the Presonus boards is actually comparable in size and weight to some of the others I've been considering (it's smaller and a little lighter, though taller, than the ZED R16FX, for example, and very close in size to the MFXi8--although that board, according to the Soundcraft site is only 8.8 lbs! is that accurate???).  Anyway, food for thought.

The DXR's are certainly on my shortlist for consideration when it comes time to think about the speaker issue, although I was thinking about the 12", rather than the 15" version.  The speaker choice is, I think, going to come down whether it turns out that it's best for me to go with a pai powered 2 way that will give me enough low end to accommodate the bass in the PA, given that we're not taking about very large venues or rock and roll volume, or whether I should think in terms of one or two compact subs.

Louis

[Louis Schwartz]

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Bobby1Note wrote:

Louis,

My first advice would be to post links to the products you're talking about, directly in your thread. It makes it much easier for people to see what you're talking about. That said, I'm pretty familiar with many of the products you've mentioned.

A simple response regarding which mixer you should choose, in my opinion anyway, requires a broader view of how you see you're future system evolution. As I understand your post, you're presently torn between "portability" vs "capability". In your case, I see "capability" as being the number of mono/XLR inputs and aux-sends.

If you're comfortable with 2 pre-fade aux-sends, then the Soundcraft MFXi-8 or 12 would probably be my choice. The ZED16-FX is physically larger I believe (didn't look), and  has 2 pre-fade aux-sends. EQ capability is similar (3-band/swept mid), but has fewer XLR in's.

Once you start looking at consoles the size of a ZED16FX  or MFXi-12, you really want to include the A&H MixWiz3 16;2 in your evaluation. The height of that board makes it kess portable, but you get direct outs, individual-channel  phantom power, line-input pads, 4-band EQ(dual swept mids). It's roughly 4 lbs heavier than the ZED 16FX, but is roughly twice the height. The input pod is rotatable, so you have flexibility in set-up.

The small format Soundcrafts are excellent sounding boards, with Lexicon FX. I have thre of them, a Compact-4, a Note-Pad 124FX, and an EFX-8. The EFX-8 in particular, is just a great lil' board for those "travel light" gigs. Mine's going on 6 years old, with never an issue. I transport it in a Gator G-Mix 15"x15" padded shoulder-bag. EQ sounds quite "musical", and graduates very nicely and predictably,,, much better than the NotePad for example,.

If your future needs include close-micing a drum-kit, then you definitely want to consider a 12-channel minimum. I get by with my EFX-8 for band practice, putting three mics on the drum-kit (kick, snare, rack-toms) In large rooms, that's simply not enough. (floor-toms and o'heads)

It all boils down to how far down the road you want to look, and what you eventually want to do with the board. (recording/direct-outs, etc).

---

Thanks, Bobby!  I added links to my post (good tip).

You're right about the "portability" vs "capability" issue, but it's also a matter of having a mixer that I can use in cramped conditions on stage.  We mostly play in local coffeehouse that are friendly to "ethnic" or "world" music, and our audiences are a mix of people with an ethnic connection to the music we play and people on the local arts and folk or belly dance/music scene.  It's amazing how small some of these spaces are, and they're not usually set up with music in mind.  The few that are larger and set up for music--like one we played last night, have their own PAs, so the issue goes away.  It's also less of a problem for the community spaces we play, where there's usually ample room on a stage of some kind to set up with breathing room. 

Unforunately, it seems, the needs of the band fall right in the crack between what the smaller format mixers provide (these seem to be designed with solo and duo or trio acoustic ensembles in mind) and what the next stage up provide (these seem designed with rock bands in mind).  We're never going to need to mic a kit, but we need more inputs than your average small acoustic band.  A ZED R16FX or MixWiz, and even the MFXi12 or the StudioLive that OneEng recommended feel bigger and more unweildy even for the larger spaces we get to play, although it's clear that I'll have to go in that direction if I really want to put something together that will do better in those spaces than the sort of hybrid Yorkville/RCF/A&H PA I'm now using.

Maybe I just need to think in terms of 2 mixers--at least eventually.  One appropriate to the smaller version of a flexible combination of components and for smaller spaces and stages, and a larger one for the "maximal" combination and the larger spaces ("large" in this context being relative, of course).  Luckily, I don't have to rush into anything and I can do this step by step.

Louis

[agedhorse]

To me, it looks like you have a pile of gear that you bought willy-nilly to fill some immediate need (or perceived need).

If it was me, I would sell just about the entire pile of stuff (other then your combo amps) and buy a single compact but higher quality system that by adding to and subtracting from can service all of your needs. Choose a 16 channel compact mixer (can be digital or analog with outboard gear, doesn't really matter), speakers that are all the same so that you can scale up and down as necessary. Choose the best speaker you can afford in the catagory. You might choose to stay with the RCF 310's all around, so sell off the others and add more of the same. They work great as monitors (with suitable blocks) and that way everything uses identical interconnections, etc. You might find that by the time you thin your herd, youhave enough money added to your budget to make a significant upgrade on both sound and ease of use.

[Louis Schwartz]

---

Shaster wrote:

Louis, it sounds like you might be in Canada - if so, there are advantages to staying Yorkville for the most part.

IMO if you're staying Yorkville the next noticeable quality jump above the YX15's is quite large price and weight wise. As a for instance, I recently did a side by side (at an elementary school) with the YX15's and my e210's (one of my fav announcement speakers). At a third of the price the YX15's held their own.  No they aren't as good but they're also a third of the price and still get the job done. 

I might be tempted to trade in the YX15's, pick up a used/new pair of YX15P's and then go with one of your Soundcraft choices.  I've placed three Soundcraft E_ _ series in schools - so far so good.  I know the early models  had some sort of connector problem, But I think it's been addressed.  As well, assuming you buy from L&M you can get an extended warranty for two or three years.  By that time you might be ready for "the next step". 

So then you've got your very nice RCF's for smaller gigs and your YX15P's for larger gigs. Again if you want to spend more money on the NX55P's fine but you won't get much (if any) real performance (notice I mean real world performance not quality of sound). The NX55P's soound better, I just found they don't "perform" better. Again, if you're in Canada you can rent before you buy.

One factor to consider is that you've been used to having a built in EQ.  You might need to have an external one unless you've been running flat. Along those lines you could maybe find a used or discounted Yorkville MC12D.  So far, they've been a bit of an oddity and I don't think Yorkville has sold many - could be an opportunity for a deal.  http://www.long-mcquade.com/products/6265/Pro_Audio_Recording/Mixers/Yorkville_Sound/MC12D_12-Channe...

And finally yes, do get a mixerwith the channel HPF - it's worth it.  I tried a Soundcraft E.... without and switched to the other model that had them.

---

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---

I'm actually in Richmond, VA, down in the states.  I bought the Yorkville system initally because I got a good price on it used from a local small sound provider who rents and sells Yorkville equipment.  I've had no complaints about it.  It was a decent tool for me at the time. Very user friendly and easy enough for someone who knew nothing to get a decent sound.  Working with the ZED and the RCF 310a's showed me what I could get from equipment still in my financial reach, but capable of a more refined sound.  I run the ZED pretty much flat except for the acoustic guitar channel.  They sound great.  And I've been surprised at how close the are to the 312a I have.  One of the reasons I haven't yet gotten a second 312a.

Louis   
 

[OneEng]

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Louis Schwartz wrote:

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OneEng wrote:

Hey Louis,

This is one of the best laid out and explained posts I have had the pleasure to respond to

In reading between the lines of your requirements, what I am hearing is that you would like to simplify your rig as well as improve it.  With the budget you stated, this is completely within your budget.

Mixer:

Studio Live 16.0.2 ($1200.00).  This mixer has 12 mic inputs and plenty of other inputs along with 4 aux outs in addition to a seperate monitor output (and a seperate mono output with a seperate gain).  From here: http://www.presonus.com/uploads/products/1373/downloads/StudioLive1602_OwnersManual_EN5.pdf

Going digital will give you lots of flexibility that you didn't have before like built in compressors and gates for each channel, and recording capabilities straight to a computer from the mixer.  You can also see all inputs in real time through the full meter bridge (every channel has a VU meter like the one on your main for your ZED.  This is a really nice mixer and should completely fix your mixer issues and then some.

Speakers:

I would keep those RCF310a's.  Those are nice powered speakers and as you stated, work great for monitors and small gigs.  

I would recommend a pair of Yamaha DXR15's.  You can these for $700.00 each if you look around (ebay currently has this price with free shipping).  I know this puts you $200.00 over your stated budget, but it really seems like the best possible combination I could think of for your setup.  You can audition both this mixer and these speakers at pretty much any GC in the US.

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Thanks--and thanks so much for taking the time to read the post.  You're right about my wanting to streamline and improve the sound. I hadn't thought at all about making the jump to a digital mixer!  It's a slightly daunting thought, given that I'm still working on mastering my analogue boards (I've got the basics down--and I don't seem to be driving anyone out of the room--but mastery is of course another story).  But it's something worth thinking about, given that the Presonus boards is actually comparable in size and weight to some of the others I've been considering (it's smaller and a little lighter, though taller, than the ZED R16FX, for example, and very close in size to the MFXi8--although that board, according to the Soundcraft site is only 8.8 lbs! is that accurate???).  Anyway, food for thought.

The DXR's are certainly on my shortlist for consideration when it comes time to think about the speaker issue, although I was thinking about the 12", rather than the 15" version.  The speaker choice is, I think, going to come down whether it turns out that it's best for me to go with a pai powered 2 way that will give me enough low end to accommodate the bass in the PA, given that we're not taking about very large venues or rock and roll volume, or whether I should think in terms of one or two compact subs.

Louis

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Go to a GC and put your hands on the StudioLive 16.0.2 .... you will be surprised at how tiny it really is  Have the GC dude go over the layout with you.  I would be shocked if you didn't get it in 5 minutes.  It really is quite easy to setup and closely resembles the layout and workflow of most analog boards.

If you are considering sticking with 12" instead of 15" tops, then I would suggest the Yorkville NX55p instead of the DXR12's.  The NX55p's are able to do lows better than any 12" speaker I have ever heard.

[Bobby1Note]

I just took a look at the SL-1602. VERY nice, especially when you consider the fact that you really don't need external processors(like GEQ's for your monitors).

That transition from ultra-portable, to more-capabile, is usually a tough call for the guys who are into the "travel light" acoustic gig scene. Once you start having to stuff those bigger mixers into heavier.bulkier road-cases, you have to start looking beyond cramming all your gear into the back-seat and trunk of the car, especially if you're dragging a few acoustic guitars with you.

[Louis Schwartz]

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agedhorse wrote:

To me, it looks like you have a pile of gear that you bought willy-nilly to fill some immediate need (or perceived need).

If it was me, I would sell just about the entire pile of stuff (other then your combo amps) and buy a single compact but higher quality system that by adding to and subtracting from can service all of your needs. Choose a 16 channel compact mixer (can be digital or analog with outboard gear, doesn't really matter), speakers that are all the same so that you can scale up and down as necessary. Choose the best speaker you can afford in the catagory. You might choose to stay with the RCF 310's all around, so sell off the others and add more of the same. They work great as monitors (with suitable blocks) and that way everything uses identical interconnections, etc. You might find that by the time you thin your herd, youhave enough money added to your budget to make a significant upgrade on both sound and ease of use.

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Thanks, Andy. 

Yes.  Will-nilly does describe the process, although each step seemed (and in its way was) logical at the time.  I bought the Yorkville system as a set and it has worked very well. I just now know (in no small part from reading this forum) that there are better ways of doing what I want to do.  Since figuring that out, I've been aiming at something like you describe, although I haven't thought enough about the advantages of using the same speaker all around.  I bought the ZED10FX, largerly for the solo/duo duo gigs, not the band, and got the RCF 312a along with it, thinking that eventually I would do what I'm hoping to do now:  replace the Yorkville stuff with a system based on powered speakers.  But then RCF discontiued the 312a MKII before I was able to buy a mate to the one I had (and they've been pretty scarce on the used market).  That's why I bought the pair of 310a's (MKIII's).  I knew they'd do just as well for my solo/duo gigs as the 312a, and I figured they'd eventually become monitors in my future powered speaker system.  Also the band's gigs, starting this past summer and stetching now into April have been and are almost all in venues where I figured the 310a's would work just as well--indeed better--for the band then the much bulkier Yorkville set up.  And that has turned out to be true.  So now I finally have the money to do take some real steps in the direction you recommend direction.

What are the advantages of going with all 310a's, rather than, for example, buying two bigger, more powerful or higher end RCF speakers for FOH in the larger venues and keeping the 310a's for smaller gigs and as monitors at the larger ones?  Would the idea be to have enough of the same speaker that I could double them up for more power at the FOH and still have enough others to use as monitors?  And would the idea also be that eventually I could add subs to the "all 310a" set up to extend it further and ensure it could handle the bass if I need to put that through the PA?  

and again thanks for taking the time to think about this!

Louis 

[and, P.S., of course I'd never sell the combo amps--at least not the ProLT ]

[jonthomas]

Have you ever tried some in-ear monitors?

 IMO reducing stage volume is the #1 path to better sound and less feedback in tight/noises venues.

Subs will take much of the pounding you send to the mains and allow you use smaller ones. 

[Louis Schwartz]

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Bobby1Note wrote:

I just took a look at the SL-1602. VERY nice, especially when you consider the fact that you really don't need external processors(like GEQ's for your monitors).

That transition from ultra-portable, to more-capabile, is usually a tough call for the guys who are into the "travel light" acoustic gig scene. Once you start having to stuff those bigger mixers into heavier.bulkier road-cases, you have to start looking beyond cramming all your gear into the back-seat and trunk of the car, especially if you're dragging a few acoustic guitars with you.

---

Yes.  This is exactly my problem!  I've found myself the leader of a much bigger band than I bargained for, and I like the musical possibilities too much to want to scale back the ensemble.  And while we're not making much money (not really what this band has ever been about), we have a loyal, small local following and just about as much work as we can handle (everyone either has a day job or is involved with several other musical persuits that actually pay the bills).  And since it's a labor of love and not a business proposition, I've had to wait until I could scrape together some extra income from my writing to pay for any upgrading.

I'll definitely make a point of spending some time with a StudioLive as I make the mixer part of my decisions.

Louis

[agedhorse]

The primary advantage of matching up things so that they are identical (or logical portions are identical such as monitors) is that it simplifies the ability to scale by choosing more or less as needed without worrying what goes with what. It really simplifies everything and an additional benefit is instant spares.

[modulusman]

  Bobby1note, Unless there is an update I'm not aware of the Studiolive 16.0.2 only has GEQs on the main out puts. The bigger 16.4.2 has them on the aux sends. Still nice boards though. I really do like the small size of the 16.0.2.

[Bobby1Note]

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modulusman wrote:

  Bobby1note, Unless there is an update I'm not aware of the Studiolive 16.0.2 only has GEQs on the main out puts. The bigger 16.4.2 has them on the aux sends. Still nice boards though. I really do like the small size of the 16.0.2.

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You're right. After reading above that the SL16;02 was "smaller", I got curious and did a search for SL 1602. I watched a product video that I thought was the 16;0,2. (This is the first time I've looked at it btw). The video mentioned 31-band GEQ for all outputs channels, so that video must have been for the 16;4.2. Sorry 'bout the slip-up.

[Shaster]

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Louis Schwartz wrote

I'm actually in Richmond, VA, down in the states.  I bought the Yorkville system initally because I got a good price on it used from a local small sound provider who rents and sells Yorkville equipment.  I've had no complaints about it.  It was a decent tool for me at the time. Very user friendly and easy enough for someone who knew nothing to get a decent sound.  Working with the ZED and the RCF 310a's showed me what I could get from equipment still in my financial reach, but capable of a more refined sound.  I run the ZED pretty much flat except for the acoustic guitar channel.  They sound great.  And I've been surprised at how close the are to the 312a I have.  One of the reasons I haven't yet gotten a second 312a.

Louis   

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Okay well in that case there isn't much use staying on the Yorkville path.

If you've already got a 312a, you could pick up another one or trade it and go all 310a's (along AH's suggestion) and get an appropriate mixer. 

I will say that always mixing on the same board and same speakers could be in your best interests.  You really get to know the gear. Kind of like playing the same instrument instead of switching it up.

[Art Flood]

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modulusman wrote:

  Bobby1note, Unless there is an update I'm not aware of the Studiolive 16.0.2 only has GEQs on the main out puts. The bigger 16.4.2 has them on the aux sends. Still nice boards though. I really do like the small size of the 16.0.2.

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Modulusman is on the money. The 16.0.2 only has GEQs on the main outs not on each of the aux sends (its big brothers do have GEQs on all the outs). I wish it were the other way round - as I find myself running an outboard GEQ for each aux foldback send - the aux do have 3 band EQ but i find it is not quite enough to tame the nasties on my foldbacks. I seldom use the GEQs on my FOH - probably because I run active speakers and they just work great without much tweaking. 

The 16.0.2 still has plenty going for it and its certainly worth a look!

[Louis Schwartz]

OK, just to make sure I have the general tenor of the advice straight:

If I were to replace the Yorkville set up with a modular, scalable powered speaker set up, I would need an analogue or digital board of my choice with the inputs I need and at least 2 auxes, plus at least four more RCF 310a's (since I've already got two and I like them).  This would give me a pair of 310a's for FOH, a pair to use as wedges, and a pair as back fills.  In other words, a better-sounding, lighter, more scalable version of my present "big" PA.  I assume that this set up would cover any gig that my present set up now covers and do a better job.  With an analogue board and selling the Yorkville equipment and my 312a, that should all be affordable for me (the StudioLive might be a little out of reach, but I will look into it).

I think I understand the trade-offs that come with the various boards pretty well, and it does look like I'm going to need to commit to something a little bigger than will be comfortable to use at the smaller gigs (and that means either coping with that or also buying another smaller board at some point).

The following question remains:  this modular 310a set up will be fine, I think, for the gigs where having the bass player play through a combo will work (and that's so far most of our gigs), so my question is, what would be the next step in scaling-up this system? I assume that I can't really expect the 310a's to carry the bass very well.  Moving one of the pairs of 310a's from monitoring to FOH (or adding another pair) will give me some more SPL and coverage, but that won't change the bass situation, so I assume I'd need to think about buying or renting a small sub or two. The right sub under the 310a's for FOH would, I assume, significantly expand the reach of the PA and what it can handle in terms of bass (more so than going with bigger, more bass-capable boxes for the modular approach all around or even with bigger boxes just for FOH). 

Is this right?  My thinking is that it does make more sense to add a sub (or subs) if needed (and, by rental, AS needed) than it does to run something bigger and heavier all around, or a pair of speakers for FOH that are not a match for my other speakers just so they can act as a stop-gap measure from time to time. 

Again, just trying to make sure I'm thinking this through correctly.  Thanks again for everyone's time!

Louis

[Bobby1Note]

Louis,

How are you transporting your gear now? (vehicle?). If you're having to throw everything in the car,  you're options are kinda limited. I bought a van a few years ago, and it just sat there, so I got rid of it. For the number of times I needed the extra capacity, it was more economical to simply rent a van for the day. When I use my car, I can put a pair of LS720P subs on the back-seat, one NX55P on the front passenger seat, and one in the trunk, between the wheel-wells. That leaves room in the trunk for a couple of acoustic guitars. I rarely if ever, bring the subs to the acoustic gigs.

How big are the rooms you're playing? (on average/crowd size)

I dunno Louis,,,, seems to me that if I was in your shoes, I'd keep it within the originally stated budget of $1200, and go with the MFXi-12 ($599) and add a second RCF 312a ($549./Amazon.com) Later, I'd think about adding a high-quality compact sub like the Yorkville LS720P.

If you're going to spend $2400, then I'd be looking at the SL16;4.2, (not the 16;0,2), and a second RCF312a. For now, let the bass-player get his own amp to carry the room.

For the same money (or close) you could also look at a MixWiz3 16;2, a second RCF312a, and one LS720P.