Live Sound & Production

[agedhorse]

I don't believe anything that a marketing guy has to say when they have a dog in the fight.

Program power is not the same as continuious power, so if you want to compare, compare like measured numbers.

I dion't care what the numbers are and I don't even mention them, the K series with it's integrated processing is a very good box... good performance and SPL.

The NX box is also a nice box, but the number thing on power handling (which affects people's amp buying logic) keeps coming up again and again with the same misleading and changing numbers as well as the same fan boys supporting something that the pro side of the industry does not support... though with the bluring of pro and MI, this may soon fall apart. All my products have used RMS because that gives a good expectation and it's up to the user to decide how much additional is safe for their application... if any. This is especially true if a cabinet may be driven hard below it's F3 and F10 points. All my products could benefit from a doubling of rated power if we were to play the big numbers game.

[Howie22]

Okay, so switching gears here a little bit and shifting my focus a bit to what will actually provide the best sound (at a price I still find somewhat reasonable), let's talk powered speakers.

I've been reading a lot in the other thread, and from what I'm reading it seems like there's a lot more built in integrated processing with powered speakers than what I would get using a power amp and regular speakers and then adding a non matching sub?

Specifically, I've read a lot about the amount of interated processing that goes into the JBL PRX line as well as the QSC K line. From that standpoint, would those be a better option, particularly if I paired them with a powered sub of the same series?

How about other powered options, like the EV ELX series, RCF ART 300 series, Yorkville NX, or even the Yamaha DXR series. Do those have the same level of integrated processing? 

From the standpoint of price, the ART, EV, and Yamaha options are far more cost conscious than the Yorkie, JBL, or QSC, particularly when you consider the cost of two cabs plus the sub. However, reading the other thread, when you break the price down over a couple of hundred gigs, it doesn't look like that big of a deal. That thread kind of changed my thinking, though it may be a while before I have $3k to drop on a new system.

[Bobby1Note]

Howie,,,

Absolutely no recommendation here, is going to beat your own ears, and good judgment. You've got to go out there and give them a listen. You can't expect to find the box that's right for you, by popular vote,,,'cause that ain't gonna happen, unless you're a helluva lot luckier than most.

Go listen to a K-series sometime,,, and engage the DEEP* function, to see if DSP is always what it's cracked up to be. Just listen to what that does to the vocals, on a nice, clean "live jazz" female vocal. It's frikken awful.

There's some decent boxes out there, but there's almost always a trade-off. Some tops sound good, but they have no bottom,,,, some are loud as hell, but have no definition,,,, some are too heavy,,,,poor monitor angles (if at all),  some have lousy finishes, or even worse, lousy customer-support, etc. Make a list of your priorities, and go down to your favourite Live Sound dealer, to give them a look, and a listen.

[agedhorse]

Listen to the DSR, they are closer to the PRX. The KW is another nicer box... all 3 are in the similar catagory.

The DXR, the K and others are a step down... either audio-wise or in the case of the K it's more of an enclosure and packaging thing.

Cosmetics... the DSR, PRX and KW are IMO more professional looking as well as more robust.

[Shaster]

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Bobby1Note wrote:

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Shaster wrote:

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agedhorse wrote:

Howie22 wrote:
My NX35s say 350 Watts Program right on the back?

There were seemingly some marketing upgrades done to the power specs... from what information I have, nothing else changed.

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Four legs good, two legs bad.  As AH has noted, Yorkville changed their specs overnight - apparently to compensate for a "mistake" that their speaker supplier had made in rating their speakers.

Bobby1Note wrote;

This stuff makes me laugh, and keeps getting perpetuated. Reads to me like a lil' anti-Yorkie bias. This issue was cleared up quite a while back, but seemingly gets ignored,  And now,,,, even the OLD numbers are suspect???? Give me a break, lol.. If there's one company out there, that has a solid reputation for bullet-proof reliability, it's Yorkville, despite the perpetuated myth that their "marketing numbers" are too high. Pure bull-shit. What makes it even more laughable, is recommending K-series as "good boxes". What a joke.

For the sake of restoring a little truth regarding Yorkvilles' "numbers", it was B&C loudspeakers that pushed for the change. This was posted almost a year ago, on SoundForums.net, by Bennett Prescott himself, General Sales Manager of B&C North America. It seems that Yorkville was being a little TOO conservative with their numbers. Look it up.

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Marketing numbers are always too high, otherwise they would be called engineer's numbers

Anyway, speaking for myself, I'm certainly not anti-Yorkville. I believe I own 18 of their speakers, and have great respect for their product.

But in the case of the particular speakers the NX35's, it has been my experience that they got the numbers right the first time. I'm not mentioning this for acedemic reasons, I just believe that if the OP powered his NX35's at 500 watts a box as Yorkville often suggests (amp rating to program rating) he might eventually wind up unhappy with the results.

That's not based on Yorkville or B&C numbers, that just based on how they have performed for me, FWIW.  Seems it's a moot point as it looks like powered speakers could be the OP's next choice.

[Howie22]

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Bobby1Note wrote:

Howie,,,

Absolutely no recommendation here, is going to beat your own ears, and good judgment. You've got to go out there and give them a listen. You can't expect to find the box that's right for you, by popular vote,,,'cause that ain't gonna happen, unless you're a helluva lot luckier than most.

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I know that. I'm just looking for generalized opinions at this point. Also, I don't have any local dealers where I can hear the Yorkville or RCF setups.

[nchangin]

Howie I'm in the same boat cannot test\view the equipment, however this place is a great resource keep asking!

[abzurd]

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Howie22 wrote:

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Bobby1Note wrote:

Howie,,,

Absolutely no recommendation here, is going to beat your own ears, and good judgment. You've got to go out there and give them a listen. You can't expect to find the box that's right for you, by popular vote,,,'cause that ain't gonna happen, unless you're a helluva lot luckier than most.

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I know that. I'm just looking for generalized opinions at this point. Also, I don't have any local dealers where I can hear the Yorkville or RCF setups.

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Where are you located? I have RCF 310A's and 705-AS subs. I'm actually going to be selling the subs within the month after my new ones come in. Either way, if relatively close, and I doubt you are, you could hear the setup.

[Howie22]

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nchangin wrote:

Howie I'm in the same boat cannot test\view the equipment, however this place is a great resource keep asking!

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Yeah, there are a lot of guys with a lot of knowledge on this board, and I'm grateful that they are willing to part with some of that knowledge to help out a PA rookie like me. 

For instance, by doing searches I've seen several threads that talk about the EV ELX speakers thermalling out in less than ideal conditions. No matter how good they sound, that's a big consideration to me, as a lot of my gigs are often during the day in extreme temps during the summer down here in the South. 

I've been doing the music thing for a number of years now, but I've had a "set it and forget it" type of mentality when it comes to my PA. I got something that worked and stuck with it for a lot of years. Glad I can find some advice here and there.

[nchangin]

From what I read the only ones with fans are the Yamaha's (correct me if I'm wrong please). A person can argue the good bad and the ugly but it comes down to preference but at least I know if it has a fan it's working to get some of that heat off the IC's so they don't thermal in the middle of a show which you and I both know shutdowns are not acceptable under any circumstances. Yes you can argue that sooner or later all fans die, however I do like the peace of mind heat is being extracted from the amp.

I know how hot it get's down south, and it doesn't let up. And if you have those amps in direct sunlight ouch.  

Have you looked at http://www.musiciansbuy.com/YORKVILLE-EX1-Portable-Sound-System-950Watts-INCLUDES-FREE-STANDS-EX1KIT... 

Yorkville EX1, has a killer sub and everything built in those are running about $2K and also has a fan. I really want to hear one of these setups.

I saw a band this summer with 3 subs and 3 tops per side using yorkville elite powered cabs at outdoor street dance and sounded awesome even with a the mixer being a crap behringer, I was very impressed. In the future I'll probably move to Yorkies when I'm rich and famous.

[Howie22]

Yeah, I'm REALLY intrigued by those systems as well. I've seen the smaller one with carpet covering for a street price way under $2k, though I'd think I would probably need to go with the bigger one. 

A few concerns with that system. One, the specs don't look that great. Two, you can't use the top cabs without the sub. That's a big one, as I play a lot of small venues where I only use one cab for a main.

[nchangin]

Yorkville = real watts.

[nchangin]

Yup I see your point on that one, no reason to haul around a sub if not using it. Wouldn't make any sense for your application, my apologies.

[abzurd]

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nchangin wrote:

Yorkville = real watts.

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What are you saying here? In the example above, how many watts do you think that EX1 system has? If you think 950W, think again. Yorkville is just like many others in rating their amps in powered speakes like a raw speaker. So they they double the RMS number in their marketing. So that system really has up to 75 watt RMS going to each satellite and 300 RMS going to the sub.

By comparison, the RCF 310A is 350W RMS. If Yorkville sold this speaker they would claim 700 watts.

Now at the end of the day watts means very little. It's all about SPL capability and overall driver efficiency. Going back to that Yorkville EX1 example. Notice the tops are only capable of 118 dB and that's max and not real world sustainable output. No matter the efficiency, 75 watts in a PA speaker can only do so much. Meanwhile the RCF 310A is 127 dB max and therefore is capable of nearly 2X the volume (every 10 dB is a doubling of volume).

[agedhorse]

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nchangin wrote:

Yorkville = real watts.

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You are showing your lack of understanding here about the very thing we have been discussing.

[agedhorse]

Choosing a speaker because it has a fan is just silly. In a properly designed product, somebody who knows a LOT more about thermodynamics has thought through the solution. I have one product line (bass/acostic amps) that does not have a fan, does not need a fan and does not have thermal problems. I hve the experience of thousands of them in the field without any thermal problems. I also have products with fans, because their design requires them.

[Mutha Goose]

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nchangin wrote:

From what I read the only ones with fans are the Yamaha's (correct me if I'm wrong please). A person can argue the good bad and the ugly but it comes down to preference but at least I know if it has a fan it's working to get some of that heat off the IC's so they don't thermal in the middle of a show which you and I both know shutdowns are not acceptable under any circumstances. Yes you can argue that sooner or later all fans die, however I do like the peace of mind heat is being extracted from the amp...

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...or there was negative thermal margin and they had to shoe-horn in something at the last minute to make it work...

Not saying that is the case, just another possible scenario.

[abzurd]

My old FANLESS Yorkville NX55P's never once shut down in the 5 or so years I used them. A few shows were outdoors in full sun at 95 degrees running at or near full tilt. Heck, they held up better than we did! I'll take performance like that any day and you can keep your fans.

[Bobby1Note]

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abzurd wrote:
My old FANLESS Yorkville NX55P's never once shut down in the 5 or so years I used them. A few shows were outdoors in full sun at 95 degrees running at or near full tilt. Heck, they held up better than we did! I'll take performance like that any day and you can keep your fans.

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Same with mine.

6 years now, and not one of my 18 Yorkie boxes has ever given me a lick of trouble.

[Bobby1Note]

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agedhorse wrote:

I don't believe anything that a marketing guy has to say when they have a dog in the fight.

Program power is not the same as continuious power, so if you want to compare, compare like measured numbers.

Andy,

Aren't you the guy who tells people to power passive boxes at 1.5x RMS,,,,,,, or "program power"???? Don Boomer recently measured your lil' K-series boxes, and couldn't get more that 300 watts out of them, and you're criticizing Yorkville????? Gimme a frikken' break. This place (and it's agendas), is losing more credibility by the moment.  Ridiculous.

I dion't care what the numbers are and I don't even mention them, the K series with it's integrated processing is a very good box... good performance and SPL.

Aren't you the same Andy, who just said a few days ago, that the DEEP DSP in the K-series is "useless"???

The NX box is also a nice box, but the number thing on power handling (which affects people's amp buying logic) keeps coming up again and again with the same misleading and changing numbers as well as the same fan boys supporting something that the pro side of the industry does not support... though with the bluring of pro and MI, this may soon fall apart. All my products have used RMS because that gives a good expectation and it's up to the user to decide how much additional is safe for their application... if any. This is especially true if a cabinet may be driven hard below it's F3 and F10 points. All my products could benefit from a doubling of rated power if we were to play the big numbers game.

In the 6 years I've been here, I've only ever seen Yorkville change some numbers one time, and only on some of their boxes. For the most part, it was a pretty modest change at that. Yes, they've also include the peak values, but, they still show the program power rating. And the other thing,,,,,,, they stand behind their products,,,,, with no customer hassles that have customers jumping through flaming hoops, in order  to get service. For the most part, they're bullet-proof anyway, and most owners never need the service.

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