Live Sound & Production

[Howie22]

I currently have two Yorkville NX35's being powered by a Yamaha EMX512 powered mixer. This has been a fantastic little setup for the majority of my solo gigs. Lightweight, easy to set up, etc. I use a RCF310A as a monitor for bigger gigs.

Over the past year or so, I've been doing some bigger gigs, and I've moved up to a trio adding a second guitarist and bongo player. We've found some situations where we could have used more sound reinforcement. We've occasionally added on some Mackie Thump's that the bongo player has (which I know are not great speakers). That helps somewhat.

We had a discussion on this a while back in the solo forum. Upgrading to a bigger board is a given. I'd like to get a 12 or 16 channel board board. I was at that time discussing upgrading my cabs to powered mains, then adding a powered sub.

Through the conversation, it was noted that even though the Yamaha head touts big power (500w per side), that it probably is not adequately powering those mains. At the ohm load I'm using, and the fact that the 500w is a peak number, the guess is that it's probably only sending 90-ish watts to each speaker.

So, I'm wondering now if it would be a better starting point to simply get a new board and a power amp that's well matched to the speakers, thinking that move alone would be a great improvement, and much more cost effective than going with powered mains.. A crossover and a powered sub would come next.

First, I ask if that is sound logic? Second, I wonder what amp would be an adequate amount of power for those mains. I believe they are rated 350 watts program.

Thanks for the help!

[Bobby1Note]

Howie,

The NX35 is rated 500w program/1000w peak. Nominal impedance is 8 Ohms.

Looks to me like your current mixer (120v model I presume), is rated 320w peak into 8 Ohms, so it's probably about 160w program, 80w continuous.

How many inputs are you looking to get?.

For small acoustic gigs, I like to travel as light as possible, so I'll usually bring along an NX55P (or two), and a small-format passive mixer. The Soundcraft EFX-8 is a great sounding lil' workhorse, with a built in power-supply, and it tucks away onto a 15"x15" Gator G-Mix B1515 shoulder-bag. It's a very convenient set-up, and the NX55P has plenty of bottom-end for most acoustic gigs. The EFX-8 has 8 mono/XLR channels, and 2 stereo channels, and the built-in Lexicon FX sound very good..

[Louis Schwartz]

On a recent thread, I got some very good, detailed advice about upgrading my own powered mixer set up to a more scalable powered speaker set up that would work for my semi-acoustic band as well as my smaller, all-acoustic solo, duo, and trio performances. You can read the details here:

http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Live-Sound-Production/PA-upgrade-advice/td-p/34711307

As you'll see if you read the thread, I use a pair of 310a's and a small mixer for small gigs, and they work beautifully.  My plan, looking toward this summer is to invest in more 310a's, a bigger mixer, and eventually to explore adding a small sub or two.

How big are these new, bigger gigs you're getting?

Louis

[agedhorse]

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Bobby1Note wrote:

Howie,

The NX35 is rated 500w program/1000w peak. Nominal impedance is 8 Ohms.

and 250 continuous...

[Howie22]

My NX35s say 350 Watts Program right on the back?

[agedhorse]

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Howie22 wrote:
My NX35s say 350 Watts Program right on the back?

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There were seemingly some marketing upgrades done to the power specs... from what information I have, nothing else changed. That's why I commented that 250 continuous was a closer number that the bigger ones and even that is perhaps more marketing driven than anything else.

I would think they would be well powered by ~250-300 watt amp regardless of what the marketing folks may imply.

[twostone]

Amp Peavey IPR 1600

Mixer Presonus SL 1602

Active sub EV ZX1A

Crossover DBX 223

Enjoy

[agedhorse]

The PRX-518 IMO is greatly superior to the zx-1a I'm all respects except size... And the on good board makes it more convenient too.

[twostone]

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agedhorse wrote:
The PRX-518 IMO is greatly superior to the zx-1a I'm all respects except size... And the on good board makes it more convenient too.

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   How bout no DBX 223 but instead a  QSC GX5 amp with HPF engaged with NX35s on one side and a passive MXR518 on the other side  Since nobody will notice it not being a stereo rig. I'd hate to double back the balanced sends out of the  PRX518 into a IPR 1600 to HP the passive NX35s.

[agedhorse]

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twostone wrote:

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agedhorse wrote:
The PRX-518 IMO is greatly superior to the zx-1a I'm all respects except size... And the on good board makes it more convenient too.

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   How bout no DBX 223 but instead a  QSC GX5 amp with HPF engaged with NX35s on one side and a passive MXR518 on the other side  Since nobody will notice it not being a stereo rig. I'd hate to double back the balanced sends out of the  PRX518 into a IPR 1600 to HP the passive NX35s.

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If the amp is on the stage, it's just a cross stage signal and speaker cable for the far side. I still think it's better to have the crossover integrated into the sub. You would still have to use a cross-stage spaker cable.

[twostone]

 I hear ya about cross cabling but IMO it just seems way easier to have 1 amp with HPF to run a passive satellite system with a all in one mixer and call it a day.

[Howie22]

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twostone wrote:

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agedhorse wrote:
The PRX-518 IMO is greatly superior to the zx-1a I'm all respects except size... And the on good board makes it more convenient too.

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   How bout no DBX 223 but instead a  QSC GX5 amp with HPF engaged with NX35s on one side and a passive MXR518 on the other side  Since nobody will notice it not being a stereo rig. I'd hate to double back the balanced sends out of the  PRX518 into a IPR 1600 to HP the passive NX35s.

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So, the QSC amp has a built in crossover/HPF? That's a nice feature. So, looking instead at the QSC GX3, that would be a pretty good match for the speakers on it's own? It recommends speakers that are in the 300w program range. Of course, based on what AgedHorse is saying, the speakers are actually more like 500W program and could handle the GX5. Then, if I wanted to add a powered sub later on, I could just use the built in HPF on the mains instead of a separate crossover?

The idea of a bigger amp, using one side for mains and one side for an unpowered sub isn't a bad idea, either.

[Howie22]

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Bobby1Note wrote:

Howie,

The NX35 is rated 500w program/1000w peak. Nominal impedance is 8 Ohms.

Looks to me like your current mixer (120v model I presume), is rated 320w peak into 8 Ohms, so it's probably about 160w program, 80w continuous.

How many inputs are you looking to get?.

For small acoustic gigs, I like to travel as light as possible, so I'll usually bring along an NX55P (or two), and a small-format passive mixer. The Soundcraft EFX-8 is a great sounding lil' workhorse, with a built in power-supply, and it tucks away onto a 15"x15" Gator G-Mix B1515 shoulder-bag. It's a very convenient set-up, and the NX55P has plenty of bottom-end for most acoustic gigs. The EFX-8 has 8 mono/XLR channels, and 2 stereo channels, and the built-in Lexicon FX sound very good..

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Ideally, I'd like to have 12-16 inputs. We pretty much max out my 8 channel mixer with the trio as it is, and we've talked about adding more members to go the full band route later on. I've been thinking something along the lines of the Yamaha MG166CX or the Soundcraft EFX 12.

For solo work, I actually have a small Soundraft Notepad mixer that I can use with my RCF powered speaker. Honestly, for most small solo gigs, I love the simplicity of my current setup and will likely keep that. Using the powered mixer and passive mains, it takes just a few minutes to set up and break down. Thus, I like the idea of keeping the same mains for both setups, and just powering them appropriately for bigger gigs and later adding a sub.

[Bobby1Note]

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Howie22 wrote:

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Bobby1Note wrote:

Howie,

The NX35 is rated 500w program/1000w peak. Nominal impedance is 8 Ohms.

Looks to me like your current mixer (120v model I presume), is rated 320w peak into 8 Ohms, so it's probably about 160w program, 80w continuous.

How many inputs are you looking to get?.

For small acoustic gigs, I like to travel as light as possible, so I'll usually bring along an NX55P (or two), and a small-format passive mixer. The Soundcraft EFX-8 is a great sounding lil' workhorse, with a built in power-supply, and it tucks away onto a 15"x15" Gator G-Mix B1515 shoulder-bag. It's a very convenient set-up, and the NX55P has plenty of bottom-end for most acoustic gigs. The EFX-8 has 8 mono/XLR channels, and 2 stereo channels, and the built-in Lexicon FX sound very good..

---

Ideally, I'd like to have 12-16 inputs. We pretty much max out my 8 channel mixer with the trio as it is, and we've talked about adding more members to go the full band route later on. I've been thinking something along the lines of the Yamaha MG166CX or the Soundcraft EFX 12.

For solo work, I actually have a small Soundraft Notepad mixer that I can use with my RCF powered speaker. Honestly, for most small solo gigs, I love the simplicity of my current setup and will likely keep that. Using the powered mixer and passive mains, it takes just a few minutes to set up and break down. Thus, I like the idea of keeping the same mains for both setups, and just powering them appropriately for bigger gigs and later adding a sub.

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I've got a Soundcraft Notepad 124FX for those "ultra-light" acoustic gigs, but to be honest, I prefer using my EFX-8 for those gigs. It's a better sounding board, and not a whole lot bigger to haul around. The Notepad can sound fine, but it's more "fiddly" to dial in,Iin my experience, setting gain, and dialing in EQ is much more predictable on the EFX-8.

The EFX-12 should be a fine board for your application, if you're happy with one aux-send.

The MFXi-series is worth a look as well.. The footprint is slightly larger than the EFX series, but it adds an extra aux-send,,, HPF's on all mono/XLR channels,,,, has illuminated mute buttons,,, L&R sub-mixes,,, and a few improvements in the Master section, and metering capabilities. I bought an MFXi-8 earlier this month, and so far, I'm really liking this board. The overall "feel" of the board, is top-nitch. Have a look at the MFXi-12. Get your hands on one, and see what you think..(12 mono/XLR and 2 stereo channels)

[twostone]

 Just keep in mind with a bigger amp  with running those NX35s with 1 speaker per amp channel would be some what risky for to much power to them, esp. if you got feedback and didn't kill the FB fast enough would toast those NX35s.

 Which IMO you'd be better off adding some more of those RCF 310As to your collection along with a active RCF705-AS sub for a small compact lightweight satellite rig that you don't have to worry about speaker to amp matching. Plus you'd have RCF's factory onboard DSP for plug in and play and don't need a PHD to dial up a great mix. Also maybe a Mackie DL1608 mixer for a smaller foot print, but personally like real faders and knobs myself.  Just food for thought.

[Shaster]

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Howie22 wrote:
My NX35s say 350 Watts Program right on the back?

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Four legs good, two legs bad.  As AH has noted, Yorkville changed their specs overnight - apparently to compensate for a "mistake" that their speaker supplier had made in rating their speakers.  I'm not buying it, but then again my nickname is Sid the cynical!

Anyway, I might have responded to your other thread but.... I own four of the NX350's (ealier model of the 35's) and have used the NX35's for a full band somewhere around half a dozen times, and my 350's more times than I can count.  IMHO the NX35's are rated much closer to 350 watts program than 500 watts program. Especially the horn. I really like the speaker but I would really consider not putting any more than what AH suggested.  I typically power mine somehwere in the 175 to 250 range.  I have gone above that with both the NX35's and the NX350's but they start to cry uncle and sound ugly above that.

FWIW one of my used 350's had a fading horn driver when I got it.  The tweets are not the most robust out there. so watch your levels and amp matching.

[Howie22]

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twostone wrote:

 Which IMO you'd be better off adding some more of those RCF 310As to your collection along with a active RCF705-AS sub for a small compact lightweight satellite rig that you don't have to worry about speaker to amp matching. Plus you'd have RCF's factory onboard DSP for plug in and play and don't need a PHD to dial up a great mix. Also maybe a Mackie DL1608 mixer for a smaller foot print, but personally like real faders and knobs myself.  Just food for thought.

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I must admit that I do like the idea of powered mains with a matching sub. But man, that's a bunch of green I'll be throwing down to put something together. This will have to happen in stages, for sure.

Any reason why you'd go with the RCF 310s for tops as opposed to the RCF 312s? It seems like the 12s might make all around better tops, particularly if you don't want to use the sub for a specific gig? I must admit, though, that my RCF 310 pumps out WAY more bass than my NX35s. That may just be because I'm underpowering the NX35s?

[Louis Schwartz]

You'd be surprised at how close the 310a and the 312a are in sound. The 312a does have a little more bottom, but not as much more as you'd think. For me the fact that you can get such a similar sound in a significantly smaller and lighter (and even slightly less expensive) package makes the 310a more attractive.

Louis

[Bobby1Note]

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Shaster wrote:

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agedhorse wrote:

Howie22 wrote:
My NX35s say 350 Watts Program right on the back?

There were seemingly some marketing upgrades done to the power specs... from what information I have, nothing else changed.

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Four legs good, two legs bad.  As AH has noted, Yorkville changed their specs overnight - apparently to compensate for a "mistake" that their speaker supplier had made in rating their speakers.

Bobby1Note wrote;

This stuff makes me laugh, and keeps getting perpetuated. Reads to me like a lil' anti-Yorkie bias. This issue was cleared up quite a while back, but seemingly gets ignored,  And now,,,, even the OLD numbers are suspect???? Give me a break, lol.. If there's one company out there, that has a solid reputation for bullet-proof reliability, it's Yorkville, despite the perpetuated myth that their "marketing numbers" are too high. Pure bull-shit. What makes it even more laughable, is recommending K-series as "good boxes". What a joke.

For the sake of restoring a little truth regarding Yorkvilles' "numbers", it was B&C loudspeakers that pushed for the change. This was posted almost a year ago, on SoundForums.net, by Bennett Prescott himself, General Sales Manager of B&C North America. It seems that Yorkville was being a little TOO conservative with their numbers. Look it up.