Live Sound & Production

[Tomm Williams]

The local arts council just had a concert with Lewis Clark from the Temptations. It was poorly advertised, I didn't even hear about it until the day after. They paid $3,500.00 for him to appear and about 100 people showed up. For his sound, they used the building maintenance man for the facility with NO sound experience. One of the knob-heads from the arts council gave him a 5 minute briefing on how the board worked and away they went. There were so many problems all night that it became a joke when Clark would say outright "Larry , you're killing me up here" I guess Clark took it all very well and still put on a great performance.

I seperated ways with these folks a few years ago for the same reasons, they simply do not understand the importance of sound in a concert. Seems impossible to not put those together yet they continue to demonstrate that it's not. Seems a shame to have such a great talent treated like that, I guess he doesn't have a rider.

[RoadRanger]

And they wonder why folks want to cut public funding for the arts .

[agedhorse]

We kind of talked about this sort of thing at lunch last month, those are the gigs that you can't possibly be successful with.

[Pro Sound Guy]

Honestly

Sometimes its better to have two boxes on sticks with a 12 channel mixer backstage and just run vocal mics.

A great band has total control of their sound and dynamics.

[Shaster]

Sound is becoming a real afterthought.

Stop me if I've told this... I got called to a school last December. It was the day before their Christmas concert and the music teacher said in a panic, "everytime the kids use a mic, the music goes off".  One of my first thoughts was that they were ducking the music signal but I couldn't believe any sound co would set up a school gym system that way.

So I get to the school, and sure enough every mic on the system ducked the music, and everything was hard wired into the bus station PA. No manual, and the one online was translated from another language.  And they had CGM speakers for mains and... I just decided to bring in a whole different PA.

The awful thing is the school just had the questionable PA installed! No one had paid any attention to it until show time. Rant off.

[Audiopile]

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Shaster wrote:

Sound is becoming a real afterthought.

The tragic thing is the cost benefit ratio in the grand scheme of things.

This last summer I enjoyed the experience of being involved on the other side of the checkbook concerning a community festival... I was on the festival committee.  I strongly suggest everyone who contracts to events do this (be on an event committee) at least once in their career as the experience is well worth whatever the price of the education might be.

Many/most of the committee meetings were functionally wholly consumed with "the budget"... and all the stuff that had to be in-place and paid for in-order for the event to function.  Many of the budget items that got paid for resulted in nothing of substantive value to the event beyond a piece of paper that we could file (or manditory handicap port-a-potties that never got used even once by a handicap person) .  The difference between good stage production and bottom of the barrel crap stage production would have been a really small drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things... considering both financial and man-hours costs.

[Shaster]

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Audiopile wrote:

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Shaster wrote:

Sound is becoming a real afterthought.

The tragic thing is the cost benefit ratio in the grand scheme of things.

Many/most of the committee meetings were functionally wholly consumed with "the budget"... and all the stuff that had to be in-place and paid for in-order for the event to function.  Many of the budget items that got paid for resulted in nothing of substantive value to the event beyond a piece of paper that we could file (or manditory handicap port-a-potties that never got used even once by a handicap person) .  The difference between good stage production and bottom of the barrel crap stage production would have been a really small drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things... considering both financial and man-hours costs.

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That was the situation I stumbled upon. I brought in two Yorkville U15's and a very used powered desk mixer.  Because I got my equipment for 30% on the dollar I would wager that it was close in cost to what the school paid for their system. But my system sounded and perfomred exponentially better.  Even if I had to spec new I could have come up with something better for a few cents more than what they paid.

But people would rather save a nickel and get something that barely functions, than spend a dime and get something that works as required. And it's hard to talk them out of that philosophy.

[Coaster]

i work for the local park department as their sound provider. i use my old HDH rig at this point. i get around market value pay, not the best. a lot of work though. the OP post is a deplorable situation and i cant see why the guy would do the show

[Audiopile]

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Shaster wrote:

But people would rather save a nickel and get something that barely functions, than spend a dime and get something that works as required. And it's hard to talk them out of that philosophy.

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There is the issue of perceived "worth".  Folks generally have a preconceived notion of what they're willing to spend on "something"... even if they've never bought or even priced that something before.  I suspect I'd be a really lousy contestant on "The Price is Right" show as I rarely (almost never) go grocery & sundry shopping.  I couldn't hazard a guess of the MSRP or what costs more... a squirty bottle of Windex or a 10 lb. bag of all purpose flour.  I dunno???  And, the truth be know:  I could care less... the lady of our house does the household shopping... and that's just fine with me.  Chance are if I took a hankering to do the household shopping... I'd likely walk out of the store empty handed & shaking my head thinking those prices are total Loony Tunes, or I'd bring home a Astrovan stuffed to the roof with artichokes and Botan rice candy thinking I just scored a deal.

A good 50% of the bids I give are to first time buyers who've generally attended an event I'm working or hear about the event and they want "that".  When I quote them the price and options (which is generally right in the ballpark of average for the market)... somewhere around 50% don't even dignify my quote with a response... 30% explode and then vent for 20 minutes or walk off laughing... 10% swallow hard and say: "Really?... I had no idea this sort of thing was so expensive.", and maybe 10% (or less) say something to the effect of:  "Ok, that's about what I expected."  Few (very few) say anything to the effect of:  "That sounds pretty cheap... are you sure?"  Of the ones that choked on the price but didn't stomp off in a huff, I'll ask:  "What did you have in-mind on the price?"  Typically with $1K - $2.5K bids they reply:  "Oh... we were hoping for maybe $100... $250 tops (being about 10% of market price)... some are shocked that there's a cost even involved.

I suspect it's a very small percentage of the population that routinely makes purchasing decisions on entertainment services.  I'd way rather work with a professional wedding planner than brides & mothers of the bride concerning wedding entertainment, but I suspect brides & mothers of the bride constitute the preponderance of the wedding entertainment buyers.

[Tomm Williams]

I just did a bid two days ago for a hot air balloon race. The promoter wanted sound across a 700' strip of the local airport. I've done this type of show before and I usually use at least a dozen boxes. I quoted them just $400 and I could immediately tell from the change in her voice that I missed her expectations by about $350

[Audiopile]

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Tomm Williams wrote:
I just did a bid two days ago for a hot air balloon race. The promoter wanted sound across a 700' strip of the local airport. I've done this type of show before and I usually use at least a dozen boxes. I quoted them just $400 and I could immediately tell from the change in her voice that I missed her expectations by about $350

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Which look did you get (with the change in her voice)?

1)  Shocked?

2)  Disgusted?

3)  Blank Stare?

4)  Confused... as in obviously you misunderstand the situation?

5)  Huh?... as in: "Could you repeat that because either I didn't hear you correctly or maybe you mis-spoke?"

6)  Or the "So how much would that be in US Dollars?" Look?

[Mogwix]

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Audiopile wrote:

There is the issue of perceived "worth".  Folks generally have a preconceived notion of what they're willing to spend on "something"... even if they've never bought or even priced that something before.

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This ties in with your note about committees and budgets. I work maintenance for my local parks and recreation, one of the grounds we oversee are some campgrounds by the river. About 5 years ago our capitol plan called for a massive upgrade and expansion of all of the electrical, water and sewage systems throughout the park. The department director set a cost for the project in the annual budget, and then went out looking for quotes. All of the quotes came back high, so she turned them all down and postponed the upgrade until the following fiscal year. She set the same budget for the upgrade, contacted the same contractors, and got the same quotes back. Again, she turned them all down because they were far over the allotted budget.

I found out eventually that her total allotted budget for the upgrade was $10k... far short of the quoted $40-$50k from the contractors. I dunno how she figured such a project would come under that budget, but in the end she finally agreed to do the upgrades in pieces as budget allows... so nowadays the project is five years overdue and definitely over budget.

You hit the nail on the head when you said that such committees are only interested in the bottom line, and will place a value on certain things in order of interest. Unfortunately for us, that projected value for our services generally comes down to exactly $0.

People generally assume that the show costs us nothing and that we're only out for profit... I've offered to do plenty of shows at cost only to have people give me a stare of death when I quote them the price. Then they STILL don't understand that THIS IS WHAT IT COSTS ME TO DO THE SHOW!

[StratGuy22]

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup

I've turned down a couple gigs, because they wanted it for free. Yeah, no thanks. Let me go to your store, but a bunch of stuff, and walk out without paying.

[agedhorse]

So Tomm, how much did they expect you to pay them???

[lonotes]

You guys are obviously not factoring in the positive benefits of all the exposure that such gigs will garner.

Wait...don't people die from exposure?

[BillESC]

While I agree many are too dollar concerned, it is not always the case.

I'm about to install a sound system for a high school football field.  The four speakers, two amplifiers, mixer and wireless mic comes to over 17k.  The wire I've spec'ed is almost $ 1.50 per foot and they'll need nearly 2000 feet.

By the time trenching, crane rental and labor is added it will be in the 30k range.

[StratGuy22]

You guys are obviously not factoring in the positive benefits of all the exposure that such gigs will garner.


Wait...don't people die from exposure?
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I had made a thread about it. It was during a provincial election. Shockingly there was no money for an all candidates public Q&A.

I was literally shocked. I don't know how many millions of dollars were spent during the campaign.

Long story short, I took a pass.

[Audiopile]

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BillESC wrote:

While I agree many are too dollar concerned, it is not always the case.

I'm about to install a sound system for a high school football field.  The four speakers, two amplifiers, mixer and wireless mic comes to over 17k.  The wire I've spec'ed is almost $ 1.50 per foot and they'll need nearly 2000 feet.

By the time trenching, crane rental and labor is added it will be in the 30k range.

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I'll suggest the subject of this topic is not all that different than when I was fixing vehicles for a living.  Some folks would look at the bill and crap right down the inside of their leg:  "What do you mean... $150 labor to put in a $30 part?!"  Never-mind the fact that "book" was double the time I charged, and never-mind the fact that I had to buy a (or 2 or 3) $40 speciality tool(s) that I'll likely never use again to do the job (but I'll store them in my toolbox forever), and never-mind the fact that I didn't charge for the diagnoses, and never-mind the fact that I fixed for free a number of other issues while I was in there, and never-mind the fact that I charged them my discounted price for the part that I happened to have on the shelf (otherwise it would have been unobtainable at that time of the evening) and I knew that that part, even though it was for a different make and model of vehicle, it was correct for their vehicle, and never-mind the fact that they had their vehicle towed in at 5:17pm on a Friday night, and I had it out Saturday morning (after an all-nighter), and never-mind the fact that they couldn't pay for the repair upon delivery (not one thin dime)... and I'd likely have to hound them for months or years to ever hope to collect.  And never-mind the fact that I don't really care what their real or likely made-up story is about their shirt-string relatives physical problems might be that has no bearing on the fact that I fixed their car and there is an outstanding bill for goods and services rendered... but I was forced to endure the story because ??? (I guess I have sucker written all over my face) and never-mind the fact that I endured standing there twice listening to their life story with a smile on my face while my shop phone was incessently ringing off the hook and a crowd of other cash paying customers were milling around trying to throw money at me to get my attention... and I hadn't had breakfast yet, much-less lunch or dinner, and never-mind the fact that it was obvious they had already been enjoying happy hour before they had their vehicle towed in, and never-mind the fact that I really didn't care who they knew, or who they knew who might know somebody, or how great of a mechanic their father-in-law reportedly was and that he'd have done the job for free, including somehow fixing the broken part with nothing more than his prowess and would have detailed their fine ride and delivered it with a nice present... except he's dead and lived back east.  And never-mind the fact that I was literally the only viable option for many miles around... and they had absolutely no plan B at the time.

Other customers were grateful... some even tossed me a tip.  Generally those folks' cars were shinier under the hood.

[Tomm Williams]

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Audiopile wrote:

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Tomm Williams wrote:
I just did a bid two days ago for a hot air balloon race. The promoter wanted sound across a 700' strip of the local airport. I've done this type of show before and I usually use at least a dozen boxes. I quoted them just $400 and I could immediately tell from the change in her voice that I missed her expectations by about $350

---

 

Which look did you get (with the change in her voice)?

1)  Shocked?

2)  Disgusted?

3)  Blank Stare?

4)  Confused... as in obviously you misunderstand the situation?

5)  Huh?... as in: "Could you repeat that because either I didn't hear you correctly or maybe you mis-spoke?"

6)  Or the "So how much would that be in US Dollars?" Look?

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Not sure I can put it in any other term than it was clear she did not see the value in my quote.

[Tomm Williams]

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agedhorse wrote:
So Tomm, how much did they expect you to pay them???

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Yeah, isn't that the truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!