Live Sound & Production

[stangconv]

Could I supplement my yorkville ls1004 subs with ls800p subs? Found a good deal on some ls800's and would use them for smaller gigs where the dual 18" is overkill. But I'd want to be able to use them with the ls1004 if more bass is needed

[StratGuy22]

I've been eyeing the same ones. Offer 1200.

I have yet to need a second pair. Im doing grad in our local arena, and I'm going to center cluster 4 LS800p's.

But that's the first time ill use 4 ever. I've been debating those subs for awhile. But for how little I'd use 2 pair, I'm just going to rent them.

Pick them up, you won't regret it!!

[stangconv]

Would they work as centers with 2 ls1004's on the sides of the stages?

[StratGuy22]

Hmmmm yeah I don't know about mix and match. Those double 18's look pretty good

[Bobby1Note]

The LS1004 are a great sounding sub. I've heard the 1004's and the LS800P's separately in the same venue, but not together. This was a school dance, operated by MuchMusic,,, the TV people.Overall output-level  was about the same, but the 1004's sounded much better at that gig. In both instances, they were deployed very differently, and also, dialed in very differently. (two different sub-contractor crews).

The 1004's were laying on their sides, on an elevated stage, roughly 15-20 feet apart, and roughly 4-6 feet from the front edge of the stage. We discussed this set-up here at HC, roughly 4 years ago. and some observed that there might have been a boundary-cancellation effect coming into play, due to that particular placement. Whatever it was, they sounded AMAAAAZING. Tight, articulate, hard-hitting, and very well balanced.

The crew using the 800P's used a different set-up, and placed the LS800P's roughly 20-25 feet apart, on the floor. These guys didn't seem as picky about blending the overall mix, so I don't know that I would blame the subs directly, but the subs sounded very boomy at that gig, I suspect that also had a lot to do with how they had them dialed in.

Both crews used the same amplification, and the same tops (Yorkville Elite E-2152's), but the crew with the LS1004's just had that whole rig dialed-in to perfection, while the guys with the LS 800P's, didn't dial in the tops very well either.

I've got the LS801P's, and it's amazing how you can change the character and tone of that sub, with just a few knob twists, so it would be unfair to categorize them as having one particular sound. I'm not a fan of deep, flubby-sounding hip-hop style subs. I generally dial-in my LS801P's for a very tight/ punchy sound, or whatever is required by the different music genres..(rock,jazz,acoustic) By sweeping the Lo-pass filter, I can match them to any number of tops, whether it's my U15P's, EF500PB's, or NX-55P's. I find the LS801P's very flexible in that regard, and the output is can be brutal if need be.

[spottyaudio]

i have mixed subs and..its hit or miss. if you plan to mix the horn loaded 800p with the 1004 bass reflex design, you need to compensate for the delay found in the length of the horn path. so, while it can work if you have a dedicated channel of speaker processing for each sub, and spend a fair bit of time calculating delays and listening to the effect of combining them. i dont really recomend it..

[stangconv]

Thanks for the help... I got some thinking and searching to do lol

[agedhorse]

Generally, mixing a horn loaded with a front loaded speaker causes problems because of both raw delay and from a different phase response (versus frequency) that can not be corrected by delay.

Will it make noise... yes... but there may be issues that cause you to wish you hadn't gone the mixed cabinet type route.

[stangconv]

Thanks, I may pass. Just keep doing what I'm doing. Maybe look for another set of ls1004's though.

[Bobby1Note]

I just checked the DSP panel on my U15P cabinets, and according to that panel, I need a 3ms delay, whether I'm using LS-1004's or, LS801P's..

[agedhorse]

---

Bobby1Note wrote:

I just checked the DSP panel on my U15P cabinets, and according to that panel, I need a 3ms delay, whether I'm using LS-1004's or, LS801P's..

---

First of all, that doesn't sound right. Second, the delay setting varies with frequency on the horn loaded subs compared with the front loaded subs (for acoustic summation) but if only using one type for the sub bandwidth the varying delay will not be a practical issue. It may be when the two different devices are covering the same bandwidth since the RELATIVE phase response will be very different regardless of DSP.

[stangconv]

Aged I know what everyone of those words mean individually, but man is your intelligence ever way above mine

[agedhorse]

---

stangconv wrote:
Aged I know what everyone of those words mean individually, but man is your intelligence ever way above mine

---

30 years of designing this stuff commercially will do that.

It means that if you place the two cabinets side by side and adjust for raw delay between them, there will still be a varying component of delay (that translates to shifting phase) that can not be compensated for. It may or may not be a problem. I think it may.

[Bobby1Note]

---

agedhorse wrote:

---

Bobby1Note wrote:

I just checked the DSP panel on my U15P cabinets, and according to that panel, I need a 3ms delay, whether I'm using LS-1004's or, LS801P's..

---

First of all, that doesn't sound right. Second, the delay setting varies with frequency on the horn loaded subs compared with the front loaded subs (for acoustic summation) but if only using one type for the sub bandwidth the varying delay will not be a practical issue. It may be when the two different devices are covering the same bandwidth since the RELATIVE phase response will be very different regardless of DSP.

---

Yeah, that kinda caught me off guard too.

Here's the manual for the U15P, and that DSP setting is setting #3,,,, on page 4 of the manual. I tried to copy and paste just that section from the manual, but that doesn't work.

You'll also see on the DSP panel, in tiny print under setting 3, the hi-pass filter setting. I believe it's 100Hz/24db per octave. I'd have to re-read it to be sure.

http://www.yorkville.com/downloads/manuals/omu15p.pdf

[agedhorse]

---

Bobby1Note wrote:

---

agedhorse wrote:

---

Bobby1Note wrote:

I just checked the DSP panel on my U15P cabinets, and according to that panel, I need a 3ms delay, whether I'm using LS-1004's or, LS801P's..

---

First of all, that doesn't sound right. Second, the delay setting varies with frequency on the horn loaded subs compared with the front loaded subs (for acoustic summation) but if only using one type for the sub bandwidth the varying delay will not be a practical issue. It may be when the two different devices are covering the same bandwidth since the RELATIVE phase response will be very different regardless of DSP.

---

Yeah, that kinda caught me off guard too.

Here's the manual for the U15P, and that DSP setting is setting #3,,,, on page 4 of the manual. I tried to copy and paste just that section from the manual, but that doesn't work.

You'll also see on the DSP panel, in tiny print under setting 3, the hi-pass filter setting. I believe it's 100Hz/24db per octave. I'd have to re-read it to be sure.

http://www.yorkville.com/downloads/manuals/omu15p.pdf

---

Doesn't make much sense unless the sub driver has a very high moving mass, but I don't think that's the case here. It's also possible that they are correcting for an asymmetrical crossover but again I don't think that's the case.

It's more likely that somebody thought that it would work better this way correcting for some acoustic response issue due to resonance in the sub.

IMO, you will probably not hear any difference between 2msec and 3msec in practice, and it's possible that you may prefer something different or no delay at all for the front loaded box, though when used with the unity top there is an additional phase issue with the LF section, I don't know how far it's set back in the top box..

Without sitting down with the boxes and analyzing, it's impossible to know. There are more than one way to functionally skin a cat... some may be messier than others but they all work to a functional extent.

[Mutha Goose]

---

Yorkville wrote:

---

Setting 3 – 3 ms Delay
High pass frequency response (100 Hz – 20 kHz). Use when the delay of the subwoofer is 3 ms. The LS800P, LS808, LS1004 and TX9S use this setting. A 3 ms delay is roughly the same as pushing the U15P back by roughly 40.5 inches (102 cm).xtent.

---

A passive sub "uses a delay"? So they want to delay the top to match? Huh?

[agedhorse]

The are referring to delay of the tops to the various subs... Or we are both reading this wrong and marketing scores another hit on the engineering community!

[Mutha Goose]

That still doesn't make sence to me... Add delay the processed tops (that already has some amount of group delay inherent in the system) to better align to a passive sub with no inherent delay (i.e. purely from an impulse response, the subs will be ahead of the tops already).

It would make a more sence to me if the subs were fed from the tops, and the delay was for sub compensation, but that is clearly not the case.

[RoadRanger]

I think we are talking about passive horn loaded subs that DO have an inherent delay of as much as 8 feet from the driver to the face of the cab?

[Mutha Goose]

Well that would make a little more sense.