Live Sound & Production

[djiceman1575]

You gotta love when life gets in the way of things..lol.  Anyways, if you remember my posts previously (few months ago) I had plans on upgrading to a QSC system for larger events, but I haven't been paying attention recently to any changes.  Obviously of course, I will probably be beating a dead horse (for a good reason...I don't want the horse to come back and shoot me in the leg )

1. Has there been a price change with the KW series?  I had a nice list planned out and budgeted, but there was a rumor floating around of price increases.

2. Has JBL solved any of it's issues with the PRX series?  They were my runner up that I have been looking at, but the talk of failed power amplifiers and extreme (past designed cooling) power failures had me turned away, as these will be getting a lot of outdoor use, possibly even in the hot sun.

3. Are there any other options that follow the same criteria as the KW, with that being
- Powered, self-contained loudspeakers
- Lightweight (can be maneuvered by one person per speaker)
- Loud and clear sound for most any genre

The plan was for 2-4 KW153's (2 for most stuff, 4 for larger/outdoor events where additional volume may be required) over top of 2-4 KW181's pending on size of event, as well as 4-6 KW122's for foldback or for smaller events where three-way's may not be required.  Max I'm estimating would be covering the area of a football field (which was easily done with my current ELX system) and up to 500 people indoors (main venue hall I will be working is a 150' x 60' "community center" which was built recently, and the gigs may range from anything from single-person speeches to bluegrass, to rock/country bands and death metal bands, with DJ gigs mixed in of various genres (Which I can hire out larger system if needed), but I think this will give me a good cover of what I'll need immediately.

Also, if price is no object, is it worth adding a DBX Driverack system for any additional processing, or should I be alright with the processing in my Studiolive 2442 (and possibly soon to be 3242AI).

I appreciate it guys.  I know, this may sound like a broken record, but I have to get something going to make it in this town...

[Shaster]

Refresh the memory please, what was the intended use of your system?

Re: JBL, if they were your runner up, why bother with them? Note that I'm not saying they aren't a great speaker...

DBX Driverack: it sounds like you're not too familiar with what they do. Perhaps if you did some research, you might be able to answer your own question.  The short answer could be yes but the answer is probably no.

As to KW prices, I would check with the store where you plan to purchase said goods.

There are so many good powered speakers out there today that after intended application, it kind of comes down to personal preference, dealer and tech support, and price.  The application component will include weight, loudness, configuration, badge needs, scalability needs, and on and on.

[OneEng]

---

djiceman1575 wrote:

You gotta love when life gets in the way of things..lol.  Anyways, if you remember my posts previously (few months ago) I had plans on upgrading to a QSC system for larger events, but I haven't been paying attention recently to any changes.  Obviously of course, I will probably be beating a dead horse (for a good reason...I don't want the horse to come back and shoot me in the leg )

1. Has there been a price change with the KW series?  I had a nice list planned out and budgeted, but there was a rumor floating around of price increases.

2. Has JBL solved any of it's issues with the PRX series?  They were my runner up that I have been looking at, but the talk of failed power amplifiers and extreme (past designed cooling) power failures had me turned away, as these will be getting a lot of outdoor use, possibly even in the hot sun.

3. Are there any other options that follow the same criteria as the KW, with that being
- Powered, self-contained loudspeakers
- Lightweight (can be maneuvered by one person per speaker)
- Loud and clear sound for most any genre

The plan was for 2-4 KW153's (2 for most stuff, 4 for larger/outdoor events where additional volume may be required) over top of 2-4 KW181's pending on size of event, as well as 4-6 KW122's for foldback or for smaller events where three-way's may not be required.  Max I'm estimating would be covering the area of a football field (which was easily done with my current ELX system) and up to 500 people indoors (main venue hall I will be working is a 150' x 60' "community center" which was built recently, and the gigs may range from anything from single-person speeches to bluegrass, to rock/country bands and death metal bands, with DJ gigs mixed in of various genres (Which I can hire out larger system if needed), but I think this will give me a good cover of what I'll need immediately.

Also, if price is no object, is it worth adding a DBX Driverack system for any additional processing, or should I be alright with the processing in my Studiolive 2442 (and possibly soon to be 3242AI).

I appreciate it guys.  I know, this may sound like a broken record, but I have to get something going to make it in this town...

---

I think that both the PRX and KW systems are in the same class of output and quality with the my nod going to the PRX618-XLF as being a slightly better sounding sub.

You have no reason what-so-ever to have a Driverack system with eithe of these powered speaker systems.  You will almost certianly cause more problems that you would solve..... and will have successfully wasted your money on the DRPA as well

I have been using my XLF's regularly (about every week) for a little over a year and they have worked flawless.  I will let someone that works in live sound and has access to large numbers of repairs to base an opinion on the reliability of each speaker

The price of all Neo driver based speakers will most surely NOT be going down.  If anything, it has gone up slightly.  All manufacturers either have released, or soon will (IMHO) release a non-Neo mangnet version of their speakers in order to be competitive.  These speakers will likely be either heavier, or less powerful than the current crop of Neo based speakers.

I like the Yamaha DSR tops better personally, but the subs are not up to snuff with either QSC or JBL's offerings.  With the limitation that you apparently would like to have your tops and bottoms matched, then I believe that QSC and JBL are the best on the market.

I personally run DSR tops over PRX subs and really like the sound.... but I admit, it doesn't look as cool on stage as having matched pairs

[djiceman1575]

Primary use is going to vary, mostly live sound work which can be anything from bluegrass to classic rock to country to metal to jazz and funk & any other variety you can think of. 

The JBL's were cheaper, but as I had said before, they were nutorious for amp failures, but were still really sporadic.  I'm still probably going to be beating on a dead horse, but of course I want to do this right, and not buy a JBL system and the speakers fail one by one...

Driverack, I figured it wouldnt' be needed, especially with the new Smaart processing in the Presonus boards that have been added.  KW prices are probably the same, I had just heard there was a rumor floating around about a price hike...

[djiceman1575]

I think I have decided to skip the Driverack, plus that's around $400 I can spend on other goodies As for the brand mixing, I'd like to keep it all one brand, and I'm leaning towards QSC for their reliability and their quality.  I believe I have heard the PRX600's do have a slight edge in volume and a more "rock" style sound, but the amp failures still have me worried (which may not be a problem now...).  I appreciate it guys...still would like some more input if possible I appreciate it!

[agedhorse]

---

djiceman1575 wrote:

The JBL's were cheaper, but as I had said before, they were nutorious for amp failures, but were still really sporadic.  I'm still probably going to be beating on a dead horse, but of course I want to do this right, and not buy a JBL system and the speakers fail one by one...

Driverack, I figured it wouldnt' be needed, especially with the new Smaart processing in the Presonus boards that have been added.  KW prices are probably the same, I had just heard there was a rumor floating around about a price hike...

First of all, the PRX are not notorious, you are stating this as fact whereas I know for a fact that there are THOUSANDS of PRX working flawlessly without any problems at all. Please stop perpetuating this DJ oriented myth crap. it's getting old. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to learn more and spout less. When you make these statements along with your Smaart comment (see below) you show your hand. This is not a DJ board, it's a pro audio board and those who know answer questions and those who do not know ask the questions.

Second, the Smaart tools (if you can call it that as it's nothing at all like the real Smaart) is ONLY the spectrograph display and has nothing to do whatsoever with the signal processing within the DRPA or any other DSP including that inside the speakers.

---

[OneEng]

---

djiceman1575 wrote:

Primary use is going to vary, mostly live sound work which can be anything from bluegrass to classic rock to country to metal to jazz and funk & any other variety you can think of. 

The JBL's were cheaper, but as I had said before, they were nutorious for amp failures, but were still really sporadic.  I'm still probably going to be beating on a dead horse, but of course I want to do this right, and not buy a JBL system and the speakers fail one by one...

Driverack, I figured it wouldnt' be needed, especially with the new Smaart processing in the Presonus boards that have been added.  KW prices are probably the same, I had just heard there was a rumor floating around about a price hike...

---

I don't how much good the SMAART processing really is in the SL.  It is more of a visual aid than anything.

My preference would likely be PRX635's over PRX618S-XLF's, but the KW's are pretty good as well.  The 635's are a really nice sounding top.

Have you gone out and listened to these speakers?  If not, you should do so.

[twostone]

Here you go this should work for your outdoor backwoods hill billy jams

[dcastar]

Hello There...

IMHO...  While the QSC KW stuff is really very nice...  I strongly recommend you check out a couple other options....

Mains:

1) DAS Avant series -- a BIG step above QSC KW and JBL PRX6's.... but for not much additional cash outlay.  Seriously... check them out.   4   Avant12A     paired with   4    Avant 118A subs will pack a mean punch!    

2) RCF TT -- A step up from the DAS Avant's...   and another step up in price.  But VERY much well worth it.   For what you're looking to do,  a single pair of  TT25a's over a pair of TTS28a's, would more than outmatch double KW's per side.

3) KS Audio --  They're rare to find; Can only purchase them directly. But WOW do these things sparkle.    On par $ wise with a full set of RCF TT's.... but less weight.   Depending on how deep your pockets are,  I'd recommend either their:
a) Session 3 Plus system,  which is a pair of C12 tops, pair of unpowered CW18 subs and a pair of powered CB18 subs (has all the amps and processing in it to power the rest of the speakers)
b) Custom setup,  with a pair of C12 tops,  pair of CW2 (dual 15" subs),  TA4D amp (quad ch amp) with FIRMOD2 digital controller....    I might be upgrading to this rig soon. 

Monitors:

Take a look at the QSC K10's...  they're a great option for monitor duty.  Loud enough and much more portable.
Also look at the RCF TT08A's.  Make no mistake, these little 8" speakers put out some serious CLEAN SPL.

[djiceman1575]

@OneEng, I have heard a quick demo of the KW153's over KW181's, but not the JBL's yet..

@Twostone, that would work, but if I do go with any sort of line array, I'm going to be stepping up to dB's DVA line array, but that's in another couple of years...

@dcastar, I've looked around, and I'll take a look at those, but price is definitely a key factor.

After some thought, I'll give the PRX635's over PRX618S-XLF's, with either (6) PRX612M's OR (4) PRX612M's and (2) PRX615M's for foldback...just a quick question...has anyone had any problems with the PRX600 series in sunlight?  I know my EV's will thermal shutdown in high heat (which is why I've added "covers" for those times), and I will end up picking up a couple small canopies, but I'd try to avoid that...

[jwlussow]

I've heard a lot of FUD about the PRXs but mine have been rock solid for many years including very loud gigs in direct 100° sunlight. The 618XLFs are really great sounding subs. I've heard many rumors of PRX failures but haven't actually heard from someone that had a failure. All second hand word of mouth.

[djiceman1575]

I'm hoping not to be one of the FUD's...lol.  Good to hear that, that's at least one good report

[dcastar]

---

djiceman1575 wrote:

@dcastar, I've looked around, and I'll take a look at those, but price is definitely a key factor.

---

If price is indeed a key factor, then don't look at the RCF or KS Audio suggestions....  however,  give a very serious look at those DAS speakers.  I've listened to and worked with a bunch of speaker systems around New England... from clubs that think Behringer is top notch... all the way up to clubs running flying Meyer systems. For the money, the DAS Avant's offer the best bang for your buck... price vs performance in that mid-high end category.  

Also keep in mind,  they offer REAL WORLD ratings.  It seems that the marketing guys have been taking over a lot of the well-known brands lately.    135dB max seemingly means different things to different companies now.  

On a set of 4 speakers, the extra $1000 you spend on the DAS over a QSC / JBL system will go a long way, and looking back, you'll thank yourself that you opted for it.

[dboomer]

---

dcastar wrote:

---

djiceman1575 wrote:

@dcastar, I've looked around, and I'll take a look at those, but price is definitely a key factor.

---

Also keep in mind,  they offer REAL WORLD ratings.  It seems that the marketing guys have been taking over a lot of the well-known brands lately.    135dB max seemingly means different things to different companies now.  

---

Really? how so?

[dcastar]

Some companies like to rate their max SPL at the millisecond before the speaker goes completely 'POP' / 'BOOM'.

Some companies will rate their max SPL in terms of how long the speaker can continuously reproduce sound, safely without going 'POP' / 'BOOM'... IE; "Continuous Max SPL"

THEN... Some companies won't even test the speaker.... they'll just "calculate" the Max SPL in "theory" based on the speaker sensitivity vs. how much power is being supplied to it.   (Many name-brands are doing this....  IE;  Marketing departments took over)

[OneEng]

---

djiceman1575 wrote:

@OneEng, I have heard a quick demo of the KW153's over KW181's, but not the JBL's yet..

@Twostone, that would work, but if I do go with any sort of line array, I'm going to be stepping up to dB's DVA line array, but that's in another couple of years...

@dcastar, I've looked around, and I'll take a look at those, but price is definitely a key factor.

After some thought, I'll give the PRX635's over PRX618S-XLF's, with either (6) PRX612M's OR (4) PRX612M's and (2) PRX615M's for foldback...just a quick question...has anyone had any problems with the PRX600 series in sunlight?  I know my EV's will thermal shutdown in high heat (which is why I've added "covers" for those times), and I will end up picking up a couple small canopies, but I'd try to avoid that...

---

I haven't had my XLF's out in the sun (I have a gig scheduled for this June outside).  I haven't had any issues inside even when the club was hot in the summer .... but this isn't the same as direct sunlight

I think the biggest difference you will hear between the KW's and PRX's is going to come from the bottom.  The XLF is an outstanding sub in this market.  The PRX XLF uses the same driver as the VRX line but sells for much less (it does have a lower powered amp module than the VRX).

Let us know what you end up with.  Either of these systems will be really nice stuff to work with IMHO.

[djiceman1575]

@Dcastar, I'll take a look into them, but I don't have the spare cash to take that route right now...but if the opportunity arises, promise I'll take a look.

@OneEng, I'm glad to hear that, that gives me some hope at least. Pending all 12-14 speakers come in fully functioning, I should be okay. Plus, it will be a few thousand $$$ saved.

[Mutha Goose]

---

djiceman1575 wrote:

...has anyone had any problems with the PRX600 series in sunlight?.

---

I've used my PRX612/618XLF rig on dozens of outdoor shows in the sunlight without any problems.

---

djiceman1575 wrote:

 PRX635's over PRX618S-XLF's, with either (6) PRX612M's OR (4) PRX612M's and (2) PRX615M's for foldback.

---

I love the 612s at FOH, but they are not the best monitors IMO... not a great angle. Though they are excellent for side fills (I use 512s for monitors). You might want to put 'em in that position and take a listen to decide for yourself before you buy if that's how you plan to use 'em.

[djiceman1575]

Good to hear about the 612/618 combo...would I be better off getting the 615M's as monitors instead? Or are they just as bad?

[dboomer]

---

dcastar wrote:

Some companies like to rate ...

---

And how do they rate max SPL?  Is it measured?  Can you provide a link to their test proceedures?