Live Sound & Production

[abzurd]

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dboomer wrote:

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abzurd wrote:

 (Sorry Don, I have to disagree that all conventional microphones are the same). Some microphones pick up better than others when you back away.

It's a simple case of physics ... inverse square law. Double the distance away results in 6 dB of loss (on axis).

I suppose you could make a small exception for differences in proximity effect.  Mics that have lower proximity effect would fall off faster at the lowert frequencies for the first few inches.

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Really? So an OM7 is nearly identical to an SM86 as far as what they pick up on when off the mic? Physics be damned, I'll take you up on that bet.

[srp72ee]

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abzurd wrote:  Physics be damned, I'll take you up on that bet.

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"...You cannot change the laws of physics captain!"  Beam me up Scotty...

[abzurd]

Meh, call it what you want to call it. You can't use the traditional microphone technique of pulling the microphone a foot or more away from your mouth with an OM7 and it's not all that great with an OM5 either. You won't get dynamics, you'll get "on" and "off".

[Mutha Goose]

To the OP: You keep saying that she isn't loud enough. Could you please explain a little more about what you mean by this? Is it simply a case of the input trim needs to be turned up higher than the operator is used to? I have seen many cases where people have this imaginary line on trimmers and faders that they feel they can't cross. Or is this a case of, if we turn her up any louder in FOH, there's a feedback issue? I think before this can be trouble shot, the problem needs to be better defined.

[tttablets]

this is what foh told me after the gig - that he couldn't get any more from the vox...

[RoadRanger]

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tttablets wrote:
this is what foh told me after the gig - that he couldn't get any more from the vox...

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Sounds like one of them multiband originals showcases where they bring in the cheapest sound provider they can find  .

[Mogwix]

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tttablets wrote:
this is what foh told me after the gig - that he couldn't get any more from the vox...

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That can mean a lot of things.

He's not getting enough input signal? She needs to sing louder.

He can't get the vocals on top of the mix? The PA is either inadequate, or the mix is way too loud. Turn the rest of the mix down and enjoy a show where you're not blowing the audience out the door.

The band before you is louder? So? Loud does not mean good, it means loud.

[Mutha Goose]

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tttablets wrote:
this is what foh told me after the gig - that he couldn't get any more from the vox...

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OK, so let's start with this.

When she is singing into that processor, is she tickling the yellow lights on the processor's signal level meter?

[abzurd]

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Mutha Goose wrote:

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tttablets wrote:
this is what foh told me after the gig - that he couldn't get any more from the vox...

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OK, so let's start with this.

When she is singing into that processor, is she tickling the yellow lights on the processor's signal level meter?

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They don't have the processor yet. I already went there with that exact same advice (how to set gain on that particular processor). Just understand there's also a variable output. It does all start with the input gain though and you now have a couple of other places where you need to get the gan structure right versus just plugging the mic into the board.

[Mutha Goose]

I see. So right now it's simply a mic into the board?

Running on that assumption, I am curious on if the board operator had the input trim turned up enough. I have run across this a few times; an operator has it in his head that a knob (or fader) cannot or should not be turned up beyond some magic threshold. That if you have to turn up the input trim above 2:00, something must be wrong. 

[RoadRanger]

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Mutha Goose wrote:

I see. So right now it's simply a mic into the board?

Running on that assumption, I am curious on if the board operator had the input trim turned up enough. I have run across this a few times; an operator has it in his head that a knob (or fader) cannot or should not be turned up beyond some magic threshold. That if you have to turn up the input trim above 2:00, something must be wrong. 

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I seem to remember the OM5 having lower output than an SM58 - so as this was a multiband show and the mic is hers the soundbutcher probably didn't know that you have to turn up the trim for it  .

[abzurd]

Yes, the OM5 is on the low side of output. So that could be the issue if he just did a "one size fits all" approach to trim. That said, I'm assuming this wasn't your first show with this issue. Was it? If so then it's likely not a YOU problem. If you ALWAYS have this issue regardless of the PA system or operator, it probably is a YOU issue.

Trying to troubleshoot by proxy is tough. One point is that you mentioned the band was not as loud as "the other band". Hopefully that's because your backline (stage volume) was low enough that the sound guy could actually make a noticeable difference. Regardless of how he had the micrphone set up, that's a good thing. "The other band" may have been so darn loud on stage that he couldn't do a thing about it. Now, if you could hear "the other band's" vocals clearly AND they were loud that would be indicative of the PA being up to the task.... vocals could get over the instruments.It doesn't really matter if the PA was providing the instrument volume or not. There was still horsepower for the vocals to get over).

Anyway, back to the original thought.... Do you guys always have this issue? Does anyone else sing? Can you hear their vocals?

[tttablets]

No, not our first show.
There's basically one set of lead vocals. She sings quieter than other female singers, but it's not something we can 'get around' or anything, as it suits the feel of the music we play. She's actually tried singing this stuff with more gusto, but the singing style changes and it just sounds very wrong.
It was actually the (very nice) sound guy at the last gig who was apologizing to us that he couldn't get us louder. We were rushed through a soundcheck, and we actually had no clue as to how loud/quiet we were to the audience until a couple of people came to us afterwards saying they wished it was louder/wished the vocals were higher in the mix.
We DO have our own onstage fx, and have had issues with feedback with the onstage monitors because of this. I don't know a get around for that, as it's very important that we have control over the vocal effects due to there being numerous changes from song to song.
We've tried a Boss VE20, we've ran vocals through Ableton (with a little ART tube pre-amp between the mic and the soundcard), and we're now going to try the Voicetone.

I don't care so much that we're blasting out onstage or anything, not at all. It's more important to me that the songs are heard clearly. However it would be nice if we could at least be at a level where vocals are coming through loud and clear first, so we can work down from that point.
I just feel that if I can get a stronger signal to foh, then that's got to be a good start, no?

[tttablets]

And if there's some stuff I can specifically tell the sound guy at each gig (technical terms!), then that'd be useful!
Will the preamps in the Voicetone be enough for us? Or do I need a magic box before/after it?

[RoadRanger]

If you need to run vocal FX on the stage you must run two feeds to the mixer for each mic - one straight and one effected. Many vocal processors have these two outputs I think. The soundguy can then run the straight signal into your monitors and the other (or a blend of both) into the mains. Frankly if you need to do different FX for each song you should have your own soundguy.

[abzurd]

Do you have any video? Actually seeing the situation would be helpful. My advice 

1- Lips should be touching on the windscreen. Singing softly and being 6" away isn't going to cut it.

2 - If there are feedback issues it's likely the stage volume is decently loud. If it wasn't she'd not need the monitor so loud to hear herself. If the style of music suits her voice, then consider playing with more dynamics. You may think you are already, but if you can't hear the vocals and it's an ongoing problem then maybe you're not.

3 - She may just not be cut out for the situation. If her voice is a whisper, no matter how much you may like the tone, it may not work.

4 - Do not introduce the new processor into the chain until the problem is fixed. It will not fix a darn thing and could quite possibly make it worse. That processor is for effects and harmonies and nothing else. It's not a magic box

5 - You need no magic box of any kind. The microphone run directly into the mixer is not only fine, it's the right thing to do, period. Aside from Eqing the monitor to give more gain before feedback, this is not a problem an electronic do-dad is going to fix. If it's so bad that the FOH is feeding back then see #1 and #3 above.

6 - I would suggest taking all effects away from her channel, even if they are just in FOH. If you can't hear her, delay and reverb are just burying her more by softening the edges and making her vocal all soft and voweley (probably not a word).

[tttablets]

Can't afford a sound guy, unfortunately. They charge (over here at least) as much as we get per gig.
The wet/dry thing is an option though... The soundguy at the last show did suggest that, to get a y-splitter xlr from the mic. One line to the effects, and one clean to him.
He did (alarmingly) say also though that if he didn't like the effects, he'd go with the clean signal, which seems to defeat the point!

[abzurd]

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RoadRanger wrote:

If you need to run vocal FX on the stage you must run two feeds to the mixer for each mic - one straight and one effected. Many vocal processors have these two outputs I think. The soundguy can then run the straight signal into your monitors and the other (or a blend of both) into the mains. Frankly if you need to do different FX for each song you should have your own soundguy.

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"Must"? No, not true. "Can" and maybe "Should", OK, I'll buy that. I've been running fully processed vocals through my monitor for over a decade with no problem. Many professionals do the same and some riders even specify it. It's all about preference mixed with practicality. If you want it, and can make it happen without feedback then it's perfectly fine.

I'll say again though, in the OPs case, until the lead vocals can be heard, don't even insert the effects... any effects.

[OneEng]

Hmmm.  So many issues

First, get the lead vocals on top of the mix.  Here is how I would do it.....

1. With just the lead vocalist, have all the microphones ON, but no one playing.  Have her sing, and get the equalization and efx exactly like you want them at a moderate volume.
2. Have her keep singing .... raise the volume until you begin to get some feedback.
3. Back off 3db from that level.
4. Now have the lead singer and backup singers sing.  DON'T change the lead singers channel at ALL.  Lower the other volume levels on the backup vocals until they mix well with the lead singer.
5. Add in the drums with the vocals.  Drums are the #1 culprit to a bad mix.  Your drummer MUST play at a low volume so that the PA can get the rest of the band mixed well.  Loud snare and cymbals can even burry a really good PA in a smaller gig (<300 people).
6. Add in the guitars.  Again, keep the stage volume LOW.
7. Add in the bass (this is usually not a trouble instrument)

If the stage volume gets loud, all the other microphones pick it up and re-amplify it.  If you try to raise the lead singer's mic, you ALSO get more guitar and drums which are STILL going to bury her vocal.

Some other tips ......

Keep the vocal micrphones away from amps and from the front of the drums if at all possible.  A drum shield is recommended (or you can do what I do and have a drummer that uses vDrums ).

Point the guitar amps across the stage .... or even better at the back of the stage to prevent getting them into the vocal microphones.

.... and Abzurd is absolutely correct.  Different microphones have ABSOLUTELY different pick-up patterns.  If someone is making bets against him, I want in on that action too.  Lets say an OM7 and an omni-directional condenser  We will see how well that inverse square law physics theory holds up

By the way, physics is not being violated, there is simply more to the equation than the inverse square law for a point source (which your mouth is not when it is a few inches from the microphone element).

[tttablets]

So how do we get the lead vocals louder?