Live Sound & Production

[tttablets]

I've just purchased a TC Helicon Voicelive Play for our band's female singer though it's not arrived yet. We'll be using this for her vocal effects at shows, as it seems to have the right combination of effects, simple display, etc.... I'll be running that to a Behringer DI800, then to FOH.

We've had issues in the past where her vocals were quieter that we would have liked (she sings quiet, it's just how it is), so what I'm asking - is there anything else I can do to get more signal gain to FOH? The DI800 has a +20 dB switch, is that where I should be dealing with the issue? Or do I need a compressor or something onstage too?

Advice/tips much appreciated!

[wesg]

How far past unity is her channel and the master on the mixer? What kind of microphone does she use? Is the input gain set properly on her channel? Does she use it properly, or is she one of these people that wants a microphone to work three feet away from her head?

Usually the best place IME to get more gain is at the input. The cheapest mic you should even consider using is a Shure SM-58. Make sure the mic and monitors are oriented for no feedback. And have her sing //right into// the microphone.

[wesg]

PS - IM (limited) E a compressor is not the answer here. That will limit her dynamic range, and it sounds like it's already quite limited. I only like to use a compressor on backup vocals for keyboard players and drummers who aren't always quite on the mic.

[tttablets]

The mic is an Audix OM5 ... we were using a 58 before that.

[RoadRanger]

The OM5 is pretty resistant to feedback. I assume by "quiet" you mean you can't turn her monitor up any more without getting feedback and she's complaining it isn't loud enough? That box will only make the problem worse. What are you using for monitors? Where do you place the monitor in relation to her microphone?

[lonotes]

---

tttablets wrote:
The mic is an Audix OM5 ... we were using a 58 before that.

---

That may be part of the problem then. She's going to have to be right up on the mic, even moreso than she was with the 58. If she's a soft singer, and is more than an inch off the mic, you're doomed. OM5's and OM7"s are great mics, but you have to be right up on them with lips practically touching the grill. They drop off fast if you pull back or get even a little bit off axis.

[tttablets]

She is on the mic for the most part, but some songs she has to back away. Is there a more suitable mic then for this style of singing?

[tttablets]

Monitors are whatever wedges are at the venue, so I'm not sure there tbh

[dboomer]

---

tttablets wrote:
She is on the mic for the most part, but some songs she has to back away. Is there a more suitable mic then for this style of singing?

---

No ... In that respect all conventional mics are the same.

Your OP says you can't get enough gain.  I'm assuming that you have the ability to urn up more so what I believe you are asking is how to get her mic more "up front" in the mix.

This is a good place to use an dynamic EQ (bbe sonic maximixer) or multi-band compression (if you can find it) ... or both

[abzurd]

Why does she "have to back away"? If she's trying to use physical microphone technique for dynamics then the OM5 isn't the best choice (Sorry Don, I have to disagree that all conventional microphones are the same). Some microphones pick up better than others when you back away. The OM5 has a more limited range than some others. The OM7 is either worse, or better, depending on what you're going after.

To keep out extraneous noise and reduce feedback, a microphone that isolates well like the OM5 is a good thing. She just needs to actually have dynamics and not rely on pulling the microphone back. The other option is don't pull back as far. She needs to understand how far is too far.

As for your specific situation, I've used an OM5 with that exact harmonizer. You'll have no problems. Because it's running through the processor you essentially now have 2 preamps. The gain structure from the mic to the processor is a bit crude. It's just a dial on the side and an LED that goes from green to yellow to red. Basically you shout into your mic at close distance until and get the LED to peak in the yellow. You want it at yellow because the harmonizer needs to be able to track the vocal to apply the harmonies. If the signal isn't hot enough it may track accurately. From the harmonizer to the mixer you have a variable output strength so no issues there either.

It's a nice little processor for the money. I used is for a few months before moving back to my VoiceLive2, but this is my backup processor and stays with my on stage in case I need to call on it.

[RoadRanger]

You might also have the problem that she is backing off because the monitors are too loud. If I see the vocalists doing this I'll turn their monitors down a little at the time until I see them moving back on the mic rather than cranking them up in the mains .

[tttablets]

No, that's not it. The monitors certainly aren't too loud, and it's not an onstage issue so much as the FOH or people at the gigs saying the vocals are buried in the mix. To compensate we had a situation where everything else was brought down in volume levels to get us louder vocals, but that kind of sucked.

[abzurd]

---

RoadRanger wrote:

You might also have the problem that she is backing off because the monitors are too loud. If I see the vocalists doing this I'll turn their monitors down a little at the time until I see them moving back on the mic rather than cranking them up in the mains .

---

Good point. I've seen this before. In fact I see it in my own band. One of the guys backs away or sings more quietly when he can hear himself in the monitor. As a result, I barely have him in his own monitor at all because I want the gain on the microphone as low as practical. This keeps him singingly loudly without scaring himself off the mic.

[abzurd]

---

tttablets wrote:
No, that's not it. The monitors certainly aren't too loud, and it's not an onstage issue so much as the FOH or people at the gigs saying the vocals are buried in the mix. To compensate we had a situation where everything else was brought down in volume levels to get us louder vocals, but that kind of sucked.

---

Why did that suck? That's textbook how it's upposed to be and what mixing is all about! You get the vocals over everything else. If the overall volume then needs to be raised then you raise it. If you can't get get the overall volume where you need it then you've either not optimized you system or, more times than not, you simply don't have enough rig for the gig.

[tttablets]

It sucked because we sounded quiet. Ludicrous sitatuation to be on when the band on before you were louder.

[RoadRanger]

---

tttablets wrote:
To compensate we had a situation where everything else was brought down in volume levels to get us louder vocals, but that kind of sucked.

---

Why couldn't the vocals just be turned up 

[abzurd]

---

tttablets wrote:

It sucked because we sounded quiet. Ludicrous sitatuation to be on when the band on before you were louder.

---

Hmmmm,OK. Again, that's what mixing is all about. You turn up the overall volume. If that's not possible and the other band was "louder", how were their vocals? It's not all about how loud you can get.... that would truly be ludicrious. It's about how good it sounds.

I'm not saying this is the end all be all but here's an example of our mix from a Zoom H2 recorder in the back of a room last Saturday at "local bar USA". Notice my vocal dominates the mix during the song with the instruments supporting, but the guitar solo also stands out when that's the featured instrument. BTW, that's the Voicelive2 doing the harmonies. The processor you have lacks some of the bells and whistles but the harmonies sound just as good.

[srp72ee]

There comes a point that she may have to sing louder.  You will simply not be able to add more gain to the signal before you have feedback - regardless where the gain comes from, either the FOH mixer or a vocal effects box on stage.  Actually, the effects box may cause more of a problem with feedback.

[dboomer]

---

abzurd wrote:

 (Sorry Don, I have to disagree that all conventional microphones are the same). Some microphones pick up better than others when you back away.

It's a simple case of physics ... inverse square law. Double the distance away results in 6 dB of loss (on axis).

I suppose you could make a small exception for differences in proximity effect.  Mics that have lower proximity effect would fall off faster at the lowert frequencies for the first few inches.

[abzurd]

---

srp72ee wrote:

There comes a point that she may have to sing louder.  You will simply not be able to add more gain to the signal before you have feedback - regardless where the gain comes from, either the FOH mixer or a vocal effects box on stage.  Actually, the effects box may cause more of a problem with feedback.

IEM's could help if the feedback it through the monitors.

---

This is true. If you go heavy on effects or use any compression you are lowering the tolerance for feeback. You didn't mention any issues with feedback, but if you suddenly experience it that could be why. If you use compression from the processor, that could go either way as far as helping or hurting. It will keep a more consistent vocal that will sit in the track better, but it's a little odd as what you're hearing in your monitor, volume wise, isn't what you're actually singing if the compression is kicking in. It doesn't really bother me, but it is something to keep in mind. There are a few compression settings on the unit.

Reverb can also mush up the monitor, forcing it to be turned up so avoid overdoing it.