Live Sound & Production

[DavidVB]

Sometimes I get tired of being the owner of the PA. I don't own many pieces, but I tried to buy good quality stuff and stretched myself financially to do it.

But we could use a couple of good powered monitors, and my suggestions about each person should maybe provide their own we're rebuffed by my partners. Not shy about wanting things mixed better for them though.

Just get a little tired of loading and unloading all the gear at home before and after gigs alone in addition to my personal instruments and sundries. Others just have to bring their own instrument. They do help with set up and tear down at gigs themselves.

I know it's partially my fault for not saying things over the last few years. But they are grown ups and decent, well-raised adults as well.

[Mike M]

I hear you... 

I have had the same issue with my few yearly donated sound gigs...I just get taken for granted.

A scenerio / suggestion: buy a kicking powered monitor for your mix....maybe you'd have to sell the current ones that you own and are currently using with the band (....heck, they're yours anyway) to fund the purchase......when your bandmates ask about their mix you can suggest that they follow suit.

Sometimes being a bit selfish will open some eyes...

or Maybe I'm just cranky.... I just shoveled out of 20" of snow!

Mike M

[Bobby1Note]

I know the feeling all too well, but that's often how it is when you're playing with non-professionals,.With those people, you either do it and suck it up, or you call it quits. Not everyone will share your enthusiasm for gear, and sound-quality.

I play with a lot of hobbyists, and most of those guys are 15-20 years younger than me. Many of them don't have a pot-to-piss-in, let alone afford gear for back-yard jams and such. Many of them struggle to get through the month, and those with steady incomes, often have different priorities and family obligations.

When I started buying gear, it was with full recognition that this was "my" priority, and I'm confortable with that. I make things happen, that wouldn't otherwise proceed if the gear wasn't there. Only the guys who play for money, show up with their own gear; and most of the time, that gear is nothing to write home about.

One of the guys I play with, used to play clubs in Montreal when he was young (25 years ago). He's a very talented guy, and he still receives royalty cheques for stuff he's written and sold over the years. Unfortunately, that guy has no job, and he's a drunk. A "falling down" drunk. He often has to pawn his guitars, just to get through the month. He's aked me to lend him gear, so he can go make a few bucks playing in bars and restaurants, and I simply say no. I simply have no confidence that he would return my gear, because I know he'll get loaded, and someone could grab that gear when he's not looking, then I'm out,,,, not him. He'd never be able to replace that gear. That said; I love playing with this guy. We're incredibly well-suited to sing harmony together, and we both like and play  much of the same music. So you see,,, I DO get "something" out of it.

It's really tough, putting a band together,,,,and keeping the band together,,, and having everybody on the same page, with the same priorities. You've got to look at yourself, and your situation, and determine whether it's worth your while. Situations evolve, and who knows, maybe down the road you'll evolve in a different direction,,,, like becoming a sound-provider for "working/paying" musicians..

[willy-b]

when I was younger, yeah

not so much now though

[Audiopile]

I see the situation as being that some/many/most would prefer that:

1)  Income is generally preferred to be personalized.

2)  Expenses are generally preferred to be socialized or removed all together from the equation.

My discretionary income would undoubtedly considerably improve if I could figure out a way to get my net income to equaled my gross, and eliminate the cut to taxes. 

If I could find somebody that could help to enable 1 & 2 for me, I'd certainly be willing to play music with them.  And, I supect such person would be in high demand (regardless of their musicianship).

[abzurd]

I have to count my blessings. I own it all, as well as run 99% of everything else too (bookings, websites, advertising, etc), but the other guys know where their bread is buttered and have no problem with the arrangement of me making more money for what I provide and do.

Realizing I have a good thing going, I still get angry reading post like these where the moochers don't even respect what you're doing for them enough to chip in with labor. They should arrive when you arrive to help bring in gear and everyone shold leave together after all the PA is loaded. If the expectation is you do all the labor for free too then you're not playing with well raised adults, you're playing with selfish SOB's.

[DavidVB]

Yeah, but this is basically one other person I'm griping about. Otherwise he's a good guy and we enjoy playing together. But it kind of stumps me how he's never owned even as much as a mic and cable despite fronting bands for over 20 years.

And he's the one making good money in the mental health field while I left the rat race in 04 despite being more educated to be a stay at home dad and wannabe musician. My wife is a school librarian, we've got 3 kids (oldest in college) while he's my age and married with wife with a professional job and they have no kids by choice.

[Audiopile]

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DavidVB wrote:
Yeah, but this is basically one other person I'm griping about. Otherwise he's a good guy and we enjoy playing together. But it kind of stumps me how he's never owned even as much as a mic and cable despite fronting bands for over 20 years.

And he's the one making good money in the mental health field while I left the rat race in 04 despite being more educated to be a stay at home dad and wannabe musician. My wife is a school librarian, we've got 3 kids (oldest in college) while he's my age and married with wife with a professional job and they have no kids by choice.

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I'll suggest he's better at working the system than you are.  Otherwise your shoes would be on his feet.

Just like the book:  "No Bad Dogs"... if it's your yard and you're dealing with the dog shit in your yard because you're buying the food to stuff in their face which results in the poo on the lawn (because you care)... but on the way to filling the food bowl and scooping poo... there's some interaction that isn't going right as far as you're concerned... you've gotta establish who's got the better plan in this arrangment (even though you might not be able to explain it to yourself, let-along others)... otherwise you're an open ended sponsor to their entitlements (where they're making the rules of entitement)... of both the food supply and the cause of the poo as well as you being responsible for dealing with both ends of the animal that you're sponsoring.

[ChiroVette]

I think this is a very common problem. I am gearing up (lol no pun intended) to buy a $10K PA system, but right now I own these insanely bulky, heavy, though admittedly decent sounding JBL mains and monitors from the late '90's. I live 45 minutes away from most of our gigs, and the rest of the band lives near the gigs. This means that I am not only tasked with maintaining the old gear and buying the new, but I have to load the gear in coming to the gig from work or home, load it into the venue, set it all up, then break it all down, load it into my car, get it home, and unload it into a very clumsy basement for such huge gear.

My band neither pays me a rental nor appreciably helps me with anything. Oh and I do sound from stage. I am the band leader, and many people would (and have) described my band as "me being the band" because of the music we play. Most people listen to the music for my parts for some reason.

Anyway, I am investing over $10K in the new system, and you know what? I still likely won't get any help! lol

However, this is my band, my baby, and if I wanted to, I could literally kick everyone out and start over again. Not that I would do that. These guys can play and are very good at what they do. But you know what? I could make an argument for their position in all this if I really wanted to:

We had a sound man with horrible gear and the band never had a really good mix. I finally tired of that and started doing sound with my gear and me mixing. Not only do we sound better but there is one less mouth to feed. So my band would complain about our ex soundman but nobody was willing to fork over the cash OR move PA equipment. Only I was there to help the sound man.

When I did start using my gear, they were very happy with the sound, but they also would be all right with going back and using the old sound man if I said we needed to do that. So in their minds, why in the hell should they pay me for the PA and certainly why would they help me with ten grand worth of gear that most people in my area would consider overkill for bars and clubs, even though I don't? So I could call them PA moochers, but in reality, I choose to burden myself with all of this. If I told them, "Screw the new PA. I am spending this ten grand on myself. Not only that BUT the gear I have I am selling and buying a thousand dollar Behringer system!" you know what they would say?

"Okay, no skin of our noses."

In that light, the position of the so-called PA moochers is a little more understandable. It isn't like they are screaming at me to go and buy new gear. In fact, they think I am INSANE for using my gear and ready for involuntary comittment for even thinking about investing the amount I am. I haven't even told them that someday, I want myband to outgrow this system and then buy a really nice one for five times the one I am getting in the next few weeks. Ha!

Anyway, my point is that I know it's good to vent, like the OP is doing in this thread. Hell, I do it myself many times. But you know what? Nobody in my band ever asked me to do sound, to move PA equipment, or to buy more gear! So why should they foot the bill would be their question if you asked them. Like it or not, I have to concede that this is a fair position.

So I think that what one needs to aks oneself is how much they are willing to tolerate and take on themselves.

[Audiopile]

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ChiroVette wrote:

So I think that what one needs to aks oneself is how much they are willing to tolerate and take on themselves.

I side with Jack White: I don't view brevity as necessrarily an accomplishment,

and:

Kid Rock: "only god knows why"

[StratGuy22]

ChiroVette I hope they help loading in and out at the gig.

With the new gear, increase the bands price by $100/gig and have that go to you as a bit extra for PA. I don't know what your per man share is. But it increased with the sound guy being out of the picture. Bumping up $100 if you can wont affect the others bottom line.

[Audiopile]

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StratGuy22 wrote:
ChiroVette I hope they help loading in and out at the gig.

With the new gear, increase the bands price by $100/gig and have that go to you as a bit extra for PA. I don't know what your per man share is. But it increased with the sound guy being out of the picture. Bumping up $100 if you can wont affect the others bottom line.

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I'm thinking either you're drunk texting, or I'm drunk reading.... eitherwise nothing is making sense here.

[ChiroVette]

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Audiopile wrote:

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ChiroVette wrote:

So I think that what one needs to aks oneself is how much they are willing to tolerate and take on themselves.

I side with Jack White: I don't view brevity as necessrarily an accomplishment,

and:

Kid Rock: "only god knows why"

---

lol not sure I follow.

Stratguy, I have already informed the band that when I get the new gear, and the band is making enough money for me to, I will be taking a PA rental of about one band share, which is more than reasonable. But I would never do it on nights when the band, which is a relatively new band with good and bad paying nights (depending on the crowd and bar's cash drawer) makes little money. As for helping, no not really. I pretty much do all the loading in and loading out. The female vocalist helps me with the light stuff like cables and stands and stuff. lol

[StratGuy22]

I'm thinking either you're drunk texting, or I'm drunk reading.... eitherwise nothing is making sense here.
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Basically I didn't know how much an extra share is.

My band, I only charge $100 on top of my normal split for bringing the sound gear. But everyone helps load in, set up and tear down. So there's lots of help.

[RoadRanger]

An extra share for the PA and lights with everyone helping seems to be the going rate - I was charging that 30 years ago (plus we paid two roadies who also pushed faders and ran the lights). On good nights it's decent and you can add to the maintenance/upgrade fund and on bad nights or charity gigs you don't. Also a good idea to pay whoever gets the gig 10% off the top to motivate them (not for follow-on gigs booked with no further effort).

[abzurd]

You reap what you sow. It's all about expectation setting. If you're also the guy booking the shows then you can pretty much call the shots within reason. Set expectations that you WILL have help and you will have help.

We've had a few member changes in the last 12 years (4 guys total, only the drummer and I are original members, but the keyboard player has been in the band for 10 years and the guitar player for 4+). The point is, when you join you are agreeing to "how it works". No giant a$$ amps on stage and you do your part setting up and tearing down. For that you are supplied with a steady diet of gigs, many of which are pretty darn good considering we're all part timers.

Tonight we all met at 7:15 for a 9PM show and all left at 1:45 after tearing down. We actually have to tell the guitar player, who lives 90 minutes away from our "local shows" to go home or he'll stay until the trailer doors close, which he does the vast majority of the time ..... Life is good.

[Audiopile]

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StratGuy22 wrote:
Basically I didn't know how much an extra share is.

My band, I only charge $100 on top of my normal split for bringing the sound gear. But everyone helps load in, set up and tear down. So there's lots of help.

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Ah-so.  Thanks for the additional clarification... although... well:  After a good night's sleep, everything's making more sense.

Yes, I completely agree:  Value adding the product should increase it's marketability and market value.

I'm the non-singing bass player (read that: production gear person) in our band.  We're doing a division of labor thing, where I'm largely responsible (purchase, mantainance, transportation & storage wise) for the band's production gear.  Another member of the band is largely responsible for promotion & booking.  Another member is largely responsible for stage attire, props, making sure everybody's got a set-list at the gig, etc...  Another member supplies the nicely approtioned practice room (and beverages during practice).  We all help each other as need be... and all take an equal cut.

[StratGuy22]

Nice!


I hate schmoozing and finding gigs. I hate having to get the money from the client, etc. hate might be a little strong.

I like being told about the gig, I like showing up, loading in setting up (with help) and then tearing down, getting paid and going home. I'm just not a salesman. If someone comes to me about a gig, I'll give them a quick rundown of the price and what we do, then I give them out bass player or keyboard players number. Then they can work out the details.



I normally get $300/night for my rig without lights. But I'm all alone loading, setup, unloading etc. $100 works for me. It's a token amount and everyone chips in to help.

Which makes things go a lot faster for setup/tear down.

[Telecruiser]

This only happens because you allow it to happen. Sounds to me like it's time to lay down a new set of rules if you want it to change.

[Reson8tor]

I'm mainly playing in a duo now, where I own all the PA gear, and I handle our Web site. My partner is the business guy... he finds us gigs, he gets deposits for wedding bookings, and makes sure we don't leave the gig without a check or cash. I can handle the business side if I had to, but my partner has a real talent for it. I'll glady supply the PA in return for not having to think about the money side.

Now, if it was a larger band, the arrangements would probably be different because there aren't any other roles as critical as either handling the business side, or providing the PA. If we ever expand to a larger band, I'd probably move to a "PA gets its own cut" approach, to offset maintenance and upgrades. And maybe a booking fee for the guy handling the band business. The rest of the band members only have to show up, and play. And help schlep the gear, but that's basically assumed, in any band I've been in.