Live Sound & Production

[ChiroVette]

Okay, I started accidentally hijacking the digital mixers thread and got some answers to this, but here is where I am at:

I had pretty much decided 100% on a SL mixer when I upgrade (hopefully in the next few weeks!) but some people I trust have insisted that I at least give the X32 a look and investigate further. The bottom line is you guys are amazing here and while a few people like Aged, RoadRanger, and a couple of others already briefly chimed in, I want to get an honest and detailed discussion going about this.

Let's face it, this isn't a quart of milk for $1.29. I have allowed about $3K for a mixer, and with the road case, iPad, laptop stand, and a few other mixer-related ammenities, this is probably going to be upwards of $4K.

So please forgive me for a thread about an issue that has probably been beaten to death!

I had a VERY disappointing experience over at Presonus's forums which I will detail in a little while, but I don't want to bias or color the discussion in any way. But let's just say that as of right now, Presonus may be selling me on the X32 or another mixer if not the Behringer offering. But as I said, I will post that in a bit. lol

[abzurd]

Do you own an Ipad?

Do you really care about multi-track recording?

Would 16 channels be enough?

I ask because the Mackie Dl1608 looks very promising. I don't own one, but did download the "masterfader" app (free) and am impressed with the implementation of everything. If you already own an ipad it really makes for a cheap digital mixer with all the processing you need for live music and 6 aux sends.

[RoadRanger]

I'm presently using a DL1608 as my main mixer. The Behringer iX16 looks to be better (when it comes out someday) with individual phantom and remoteable/recallable head amps - and the rackmount 2U (?) version of the X32 even better. Mackie is hard at work fixing some of the more major "oops" (next firmware release this month) and aside from the two hardware features I mentioned is at least as good a live mixer and available now .

[madjack]

Don't discount the Yamaha 01v96. Current MAP is $2400, which means it can likely be gotten cheaper than that. I realize it's only 12 xlr inputs, but the 4 trs inputs are very usable, it has 16 channels of usb for recording, and it's quite easy and reasonably cheap to add 8 more channels in and out via adat. Also proven track record for durability. Initial setup might be a challenge for new users, but there is a very good support forum for it, and exploring with studio manager helped my a lot with learning the desk.

[ChiroVette]

Those all sound like good choices, and I love the Yamaha digital offering. But I would definitely like at least 24 channels, which I agree is overkill. But I play in a Dead cover band and we sometimes plan on using two drummers and we have a percussionist who comes in sporadically with bongos, other implements, and a couple of mics. Add to that keys with vox, rhythm guitar with vox, lead guitar with vox, bass with rare vox, and a female vocalist, and I think that 24 is just right. 12 XLR inputs would definitely NOT work for me, that I can tell you right off.

[ChiroVette]

By the way, the reason I am VERY turned off to Presonus right now is because I created a thread like this in their forum and with no word to me, they tanked it. Now I was not trolling or looking for a console war. I wanted to give the Presonus staff, customers, and other members the chance to discuss this with me.

Turns out that Presonus does not allow members to ask questions about how their products compare with others, ESPECIALLY the X32, because there is apparently some bad blood between Presonus and Behringer. I got into a long discussion with the forum mod about it in private message (PM) and told him that in no uncertain terms the policy is garbage. He explained that this is not his policy because he is only the forum mod, which I understand.

But I basically explained to him that I will not trust a company with a policy like that. Because it looks like you have something to hide, which, by the way, is precisely what Behringer has been accusing you of. Needless to say I am NOT happy and I am trouble imagining how, in good conscience, I can give Presonus $3K+ of my money when I cannot ask their community the question I basically am asking in this thread!

[abzurd]

Be careful taking the "high road" approach when discussing Behringer. I'm not looking to start a Behringer bash-a-thon, but there's probably bad blood between Behringer and pretty much every other REPUTABLE brand. Love Behringer or hate them, they have an irrefutable history of stealing, lying and cheating.

With regard to the Presonus forum, what's your beef? It's their forum. They can have whatever policies they want. Catering to threads that potentially sell against their own products probably isn't in their best interests. Besides, is that the best place to go anyway? Ultimately it will be a love fest of Presonus users sprinkled with a few who have an ax to grind. Ask the question anyplace else and you're bound to get a more objective answer.

[Koopdaddy]

Shrug, it is their loss in the end. I don't understand why they are approaching the marketing this way.

[dbMontana]

Careful CV.  I participate over at the Presonus forum as well (I did see your post there) and I wouldn't consider it to be an unbiased source of information at all.  That said, from what I can tell Presonus does stand behind their products fairly well.  You have legitimate concerns with spending your $$ wisely and finding the best match for your needs while staying below that magic inflection point in the cost/performance graph but I'd caution against allowing the warm-fuzzy you'll get from going Behringer just cuz Presonus deleted your post figure too heavily into the decision.  Just my friendly $0.02.

   ...dave

[ChiroVette]

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dbMontana wrote:

Careful CV.  I participate over at the Presonus forum as well (I did see your post there) and I wouldn't consider it to be an unbiased source of information at all.  That said, from what I can tell Presonus does stand behind their products fairly well.  You have legitimate concerns with spending your $$ wisely and finding the best match for your needs while staying below that magic inflection point in the cost/performance graph but I'd caution against allowing the warm-fuzzy you'll get from going Behringer just cuz Presonus deleted your post figure too heavily into the decision.  Just my friendly $0.02.

   ...dave

---

First, I was not giving information in my thread, so perhaps you read someone else's? Because mine was locked before it had like 6 views and zero responses. I didn't actually give any information, at least not much other than to start a discussion. I asked for opinions and made it clear that I am starting threads both in their community and in Behringer's as well, to be fair.

But closing that thread without so much as a link to another place where I can discuss this issue with their community is a bad thing to do. Why? Because, yes, it is their forum. But you know what? From my standpoint, as a customer, it looks VERY SUSPICIOUS that they won't allow me to research their product alongside their fiercest competitor. They want to heavily moderate a discussion like that? Fine. They want ot close my thread and direct me to WHERE in their community I can discuss this? Also fine. They want me to rephrase my post because they think I asked the question in an inappropriate manner? Again, fine.

But when you squelch discussions like this which are posted to help me gather information to make up my mind, regardless of any other factors, you know what the first question I ask is? "What are you trying to hide?" Then I ask myself, "What are they afraid I might learn if I am asked to get comparisons?"

You think I don't already know that most of the members there are going to be fanboys of Presonus? That is why I asked it there, asked it here, and as soon as I can get the damned email account verification over at Behringer, I will ask it there as well. I am not stupid. I am not going to make a $4,000.00 decision based on a company's official forum.

But I also would NEVER give a dime to a company that would squelch this discussion. Bad blood between Presonus and Behringer or not, I don't care. Because as I said, this looks damned suspicious to me. So here's the thing: I started out 90% convinced that the SL was my mixer and I was only investigating this issue because some friends all but demanded I do. But to get stonewalled at their forum when inquiring about the virtues of their product over another?? Sorry, but that is just over the top.

Oh and to anyone who takes the ludicrous position that, "It's their forum, so they make the rules!" let me just say, "DUH!!!" Of course, it's their forum and their rules. I get that. They can change the topic to "Monkees eating plantains instead of bananas" if they want. I have no legal recourse, nor was I posturing as if I did. All I am saying is that if this is the position they are sticking to, no way am I giving them my money. This isn't a can of soda I am buying, And it is NOT unreasonable for me, as a paying customer with money to spend to start a dialog like this and expect it to be allowed.

So, yes, it's their forum. Yes, they make the rules. But until I pick a product and buy it, its my money. That's my point. Ad if the X32 ends up being crap, which from everything I am reading and hearing it isn't (and in fact the X32 is supposed to be awesome!) then there are other mixers out there. I don't have to limit myself to these two if I don't want to.

Anyway, I spoke to the moderator there in PM and spoke at langth with their customer service rep, who took all my information and who actually agrees with much of what I am saying, or at least that's what he said. So we'll see.

[RoadRanger]

Just a FYI Mackie has had no problems with folks on their forums comparing other mixers to theirs - and we get pretty brutal at times . Grab a torch and pitchfork and stop on by .

[abzurd]

My ludicrious positions aside  If EVERYTHING you're reading is awesome about the X32 then you're not looking very hard. Check out the soundforums. There are many not so awesome things about the board there... as in show stopping things like the board not passing audio if it's lifted up slightly, or a bunch of lights not working, or channels not working, etc. The X32 is a lot of features for the money, but that's always been Behringer's thing. According to Uli, who posts on soundforums, the days of sketchy quality are behind them and support people are quick to jump on those threads with instructions for repair or exchange. Their warranty is also better. Of course the best warranty is one you don't have to use.

BTW, Presonus fanboy wise.... You probably know I've owned a StudioLive since January of 2009, but I didn't mention it in my first response, instead asking what your needs were and potentially open up to other brands. That said, I love my SL. I've followed their progress over the years though and, to be fair, they haven't been without their quality control issues. I've not heard much the last few years though so I'm guessing anything systemic has been corrected. I have about 220 shows on mine now and have never had a problem.

[ChiroVette]

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abzurd wrote:

My ludicrious positions aside  If EVERYTHING you're reading is awesome about the X32 then you're not looking very hard. Check out the soundforums. There are many not so awesome things about the board there... as in show stopping things like the board not passing audio if it's lifted up slightly, or a bunch of lights not working, or channels not working, etc. The X32 is a lot of features for the money, but that's always been Behringer's thing. According to Uli, who posts on soundforums, the days of sketchy quality are behind them and support people are quick to jump on those threads with instructions for repair or exchange. Their warranty is also better. Of course the best warranty is one you don't have to use.

BTW, Presonus fanboy wise.... You probably know I've owned a StudioLive since January of 2009, but I didn't mention it in my first response, instead asking what your needs were and potentially open up to other brands. That said, I love my SL. I've followed their progress over the years though and, to be fair, they haven't been without their quality control issues. I've not heard much the last few years though so I'm guessing anything systemic has been corrected. I have about 220 shows on mine now and have never had a problem.

---

Look, I apologize, man. What you said about it being their forum and them having the right to run it as they see fit just rubbed me the wrong way because I wasn't contesting that. This isn't some forum asshat railing against being banned. I am a customer who feels like I am getting stonewalled by them in a legitimate search for answers. The worst part about it is that I really would probably end up buying the SL and as I said am only investiaging this at the urging of my friends who I trust. Yes, so far, both mixers seem awesome, which considering how bad Behringer has been, is saying a lot. Both mixers have their things that are atracting me to them and both have issues I don't like. I mentioned this in another thread somwehere: There is no deal breaker that I am seeing now. Both mixers seem to bring a lot to the table. For me, as a somewhat inexperienced user, the presets (as much as you guys rail against them) are very attractive to me. The softward that the SL has bundled with it is also in Presonus's favor, as is the ease of use of the SL, but the X32 has some amazing things going on as well.

I just cannot get past this being stonewalled at their forum, and I called Preonus to complain about their policies in this regard. What is undoubtely going to sound crazy is that while this started out as a perfunctory search...a fool's errand to placate my friends, has turned into a situation where even if I REALLY WANT the SL, there is no way I can buy one now. Not unless they allow me this stupid topic! Why? Because now I am pissed off, to be honest. And while that may sound irrational, you know what? There are other mixers out there and other companies that will not act in such a suspicious manner in a thread daring to ask their community about the virtues of their product over their competitors. I will probably take a lot of heat for this position in this forum, and I am prepared to. But from my perspective, don't you dare ask me for $3K+ of my money and then pull the plug on me asking in your community WHY I should buy it over something else!

RoadRanger wrote:

Just a FYI Mackie has had no problems with folks on their forums comparing other mixers to theirs - and we get pretty brutal at times . Grab a torch and pitchfork and stop on by .

I will! Maybe I will re-evaluate my position on Mackie's as well and buy one of theirs if it is good. I haven't even considered a Mackie because I know a lot of people who have had problems with it.

[heath_eld]

Dont know any of the three products being discussed intimately enough to give detailed comment, but i have played with them all in the shop. The Mackie looks like a cool, functional and easy to use little device, but just does not feel to be targeted to the pro market from a quick play in the shop (it is priced accordingly). 

The Behringer looks and feels "more pro" than the presonus, but we all know the issues around Behringer. I have no personal experience with the X32 one way or the other.

[Mutha Goose]

CV: Forgetting the whole forum thing... an hour after you have your board, that won't matter one bit, so...

In general, you will not find much difference in audio quality between the boards. The built in effects will vary a bit, but I believe that the effects engines in at least the X32 and the SL24 will be of similar quality (I have had widely varying experiences with Mackie's effect quality: some are pretty usable, some suck).

Assuming all of the boards you are considering have the feature sets you want, my advice to you is to go to a store and run through a couple of mock-setups on each board you are considering. Check the workflow for base-lining your band. This is where digital boards truly separate from each other, the user-interface. set the HPFs, gates, etc. for all of your usual inputs. Do all of the basic configurations that you currently run to get your system ready for tuning. Configure the monitor mixes. Look to add a couple of effects for a few channels. Mess with the EQs. Pretend there is a little feedback at 3.2kHz in FOH (for example). Do the same for the Aux 2 (for example). Can you find the tools to address this quickly? Pay attention to the quality and feel of the controls. Pay attention to the menu layers, and the "location" of the controls you are interested in. Are they where you'd expect? Can you navigate the menus efficiently? Could you teach someone to use the board in a few minutes (if you will ever put someone else behind the board)? Is the board working with you and the way you think, or is it in the way? This excessive will answer FAR more questions for you than any forum discussions.

Of course, none of this addresses any reliability and/or build quality differences. Unfortunately the X32 hasn't been out long enough to know how it performs. I can only guess that it will perform as well as the SL has in this aspect (judging from the early reviews).

A final note: Don't let the huge quantity of add-ons and extra features bias your decision. Just pay attention to what you know you need and want (for example: I couldn't care less about SMAART in the SL). I have a washing machine with 18 settings... I use 2. Those 2 are in every washer I could ever buy. The other 16 will never be used. Why let them influence my buying decision?

I have no experience with the X32 and a lot of experience with the SL. The SL works very well for me and the way I want to run a system. I find the workflow on the SL to be very intuitive and right at my fingertips. I can train any operator with analog board experience in minutes (I usually explain the FAT channel as being a horizontal channel strip, vs. the usual vertical orientation). The SL has been a very good addition to my rig and I would buy another if something happened to mine.

[ChiroVette]

Wow, THANK YOU so much, Mutha Goose! I have been on forums for a very long time, and in fact, I am a highly regarded supermoderator on a huge tech/gaming site with thousands of forums, and in all my years on this forum and on Neoseeker, and a ton of other forums, your post is without a doubt one of the most relevant, informative, and well thought out advice I have ever seen. I read it several times. The only thing I will say is that this part is very difficult for me:

Mutha Goose wrote:

CV: Forgetting the whole forum thing... an hour after you have your board, that won't matter one bit, so...

It isn't that I disagree with this, because I don't. The thing is that I am under no illusions here. I know that if I buy a SL mixer I may be one of, what, about 500 that month who purchased one? That means for the month, I would represent 0.2% of their sales. Extrapolate that to a year, assuming 5,000 units sell (to make the math easier than 6,000) then I would now represent 0.02% of their gross sales, and I bet they sell a lot more units than that! My point is that I know that at BEST, my statistical relevance to Presonus with my one-mixer-purchase is insignificant. So I can't help or hurt them whatever I decide.

Here's my problem: I still have to look at myself in the mirror, and whether I am right or wrong, and I may be wrong, now it really is a matter of principal! Worse yet, after reading your post and continuing my research, I think my original choice of the 24.2.2 is the right one for me. The mixer may not be perfect...no product is, but it is more likely than not as close to "perfect for me at this time of my life" as I am going to find.

But I am stuck in this sort of infinite loop. Presonus customer support is going to call me back on Monday, and let me know if they will allow me to ask this of their community.

I don't even fucking care about the stupid thread anymore, to be honest! Just that they allow it! I know that seems crazy, considering I am almost re-convinced about the SL. But I simply CANNOT and WILL NOT give my money, particularly almost $4K (mixer + ammenities) to a company that will stonewall an honest question/research thread like I posed because they have bad blood with Behringer. It is absolutely horrifying to me that they are so terrified that the walls will come tumbling down if I am allowed to ask this in their forum.

I know that surely none of you will understand this, and you know what? I respect it if you don't. Maybe in the end, no matter how much education and life experience I have, I am still just a stubborn Sicilian from Brooklyn. If so, that's just who I am. That company doesn't get a dime from me unless their customer service allows this honest inquiry in their community. That's just the way it is. But seriously, THANK YOU again four your answer. Awesome stuff!

[modulusman]

 Yet you have no problem giving your money to a company that is famous for stealing other peoples designs. That is a deal breaker for me. I know now that behringer has made a fortune they are trying to be respectable but they are still a bunch of crooks as far as I'm concerned.

[Rob_H]

Agree on the comments about Mutha's post, very well written and love the washing machine analogy.

To the OP, I don't know you at all so my comments are purely based on what I have read here; as much as it is tough to back down from your position, I have to ask what is in it for you? It sounds like you see the SL as the right solution for you but you are willing to consider a product that may be "less right" for you based on the principle of whether you can ask a question on a forum?

No offense intended, from an outsider's perspective it looks like you are willing to make a poor decision for yourself based on a principle that seems a little unreasonable. I would understand if they were using child labour from a 3rd world country and that ran up against your belief system etc but because they won't let you post about competitive products on their forum? If I was in your situation I would appreciate someone telling me I may have my head up my ass, not looking to pick a fight, just sharing some straight talk I would want to hear if I was in your shoes.

As far as the product performance, product support and help available goes, I have heard nothing but good comments on PS so in my opinion, it doesn't seem like there is a real issue here you are trying to uncover, sounds more like a "lifes not fair" position....guess what, it isn't.

[ChiroVette]

Modulusman, from everything I have researched, that company paradigm is no longer one that Behringer is following. They really are making an unbelievable effort to change their rep, and purchasing Midas was an incredible first step!

Rob_H, this is not a "life is unfair" position, it is a question of principal. I respect that you don't agree, and I expect most people not to here. But my position is that not allowing an honest question says to me that they are afraid of something. Maybe what they are afraid of is that the X32 really is a game changer and a way better mixer. Just because I believe right now that the SL is probably better and better for me doesn't mean it is. I have only been researching the comparison for two days or so! The friends who are admonishing me to give this mixer a chance are not morons or sound n00bs. They are people I regard as experts. They believe that my position on this is the correct one, oddly enough, and think that once I get used to it, with its admittedly steeper learning curves and deeper menus, that the X32 will actually be a better mixer for me.

Maybe they are right and maybe you guys are, I don't know. Look, let me be clear: as I said, there is no deal breaker here. From everything I have seen the X32 is a fantastic mixer and so is the SL. I don't think I am going to "go wrong" if I choose either one, because they are both incredibly well designed, and the X32 is not a Behringer mixer anyway, it's a Midas mixer. Anyone who says otherwise (like the guy on the phone over at Presonus) is wrong.

The way some are making it sound, I am considering choosing a TERRIBLE product over a great one. Come on, that is a wildly hyperbolic position. I am not choosing between a tool and a toy here. These mixers BOTH have great advantages and both have disadvantages. I am not a moron and I am not going to buy some shit product on spite.

Also, what? Are people really convinced those are my only two choices? Yes, maybe the SL is the best mixer for me, or close to it. Maybe the X32 will ONLY be 95% good for me. Hell, maybe I can spend more money on something even better than both of them. Maybe one of the A&H mixers, hell how about APB Dynaonics? I can stay analog and not die a slow, horrible musical death if it turns out I don't buy either the X32 or the SL.

You know what else? There is a third choice nobody has considerd:

If I decide the SL is way better than anything else, I can buy a used one. I can still get the benefit of that mixer, if it ends up being what I want, and Presonus doesn't get a dime from me because it was already sold to someone else. I just have to make sure I get the software license bundled into the deal as well, but if Presonus doesn't back off of their policy, I have MANY OPTIONS that do not have to mean I back off of my principals. But I will not back down from my position because I believe it is absolutely right.

[jonthomas]

This covers the basics, it poped up up a few days ago and you may have already read it.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/church_sound_digital_mixer_comparison_--_roland_m-200i_behringer_...