Live Sound & Production

[RoadRanger]

So, I'm looking at a very small room where it might make sense to set up the mains on the opposite wall facing the band - no real room for the mains or monitors on-stage. At what distance does the delay get to be too much for the vocalists? The lead singer will probably be out front and roaming the room but I'm more concerned with the backups...

[Crownman]

If it's a small room you probably can't get far enough away for the delay to be an issue.  Or, if you have a gig at a larger place before going into this place try getting out in front of the mains and keep backing up until you notice a difference.

[RoadRanger]

Maybe I can just put some negative delay on it . Seriously, I see lots of folks rehearsing this way but with the mains maybe 15-20 feet away. This might end up being 30 or 35.

[agedhorse]

Usually, this becomes confusing to the audience, having the vocals come from behind them while watching the band.

[RoadRanger]

---

agedhorse wrote:

Usually, this becomes confusing to the audience, having the vocals come from behind them while watching the band.

---

I was thinking of having a pair of small mains behind the band also but they wouldn't have enough GBF for this particular band. This room has no business booking a 5 piece hard rock band :facepalm:. I've seen a trio there and it was tight with 12" mains no subs. I'd love to try a couple 8' columns behind the band for this .

[Bobby1Note]

---

RoadRanger wrote:

Maybe I can just put some negative delay on it . Seriously, I see lots of folks rehearsing this way but with the mains maybe 15-20 feet away. This might end up being 30 or 35.

---

We do our band rehearsals in much the same manner, and that room is 36 feet long. No issues whatsoever. There's a wall of speakers behind the drum-kit,  and the guys out front are basically in a circle, facing each other and the drummer.

I thinks Andy's point is a good one, but to be honest, even when I'm sitting with the guests, the sound seems to originate at the players' position, and not from the speaker stack. That probably has a lot to do with the room being small, and the fact that we're getting a lot of direct sound; especially from vocals.

Mind you, we're not seated with out backs to the speakers, with the band in front. The spealers are off to our left, firing toward our right. Sort of a "T" configuration.

[Shaster]

I've rehearsed that way many times, never seemed to be an issue.

And a VERY long time ago I used to regularly play this place in Vancouver called the Town Pump.  IIRC they had some or most of the FOH mounted on the opposite wall of a fairly narrow room, facing the stage. Although it was a little strange it was never really a problem.

I saw lots of artists there including Clarence "Gatemouth" Brown and Danny Gatton.  As I recall, no one ever had a hissy fit regarding the sound.

[Craigv]

---

RoadRanger wrote:

Maybe I can just put some negative delay on it .

Add enough, and you don't even have to show up!

The venue sounds like a decent candidate for a Bose setup.

[RoadRanger]

---

Craigv wrote:

The venue sounds like a decent candidate for a Bose setup.

---

Yes, a pair of those columns and four bass modules would probably do it. Stoopid expensive though .

[Audiopile · Accepted solution]

---

RoadRanger wrote:

At what distance does the delay get to be too much for the vocalists? The lead singer will probably be out front and roaming the room but I'm more concerned with the backups...

---

To answer your questions directly:

1)  Much of what we (humans) have evolved to hear is a combination of varying delays in sound.

2)  Sound generally drops-off as a square to the distance involved (inverse square law)... -6dB every doubling of the distance.

3)  Amplified sound throws a monkey wrench into that which our brains have evolved to process concerning reflected sound (amplified sound is a relative new-comer in human evolution).

4)  Human brains are wired to handily deal with up-to 30ms delay.  Pushing the envelope past 30ms starts to get messy... generally 50ms. is where the human brain switches to "echo" mode... because... in nature there's faint little reflected sound that reaches our ears from a reflection point 15ft. or more away... and something that's delayed 50ms or more and is clearly perceptible, that's an anomaly, so we try to sort out what's up with that… which takes considerable additional concentration and can be extremely confusing (because it just ain’t right as far as our brains are concerned).

[RoadRanger]

Thanks! I'll have to check out the distance more exactly - this particular "venue" is exactly 1/2 mile from my house so no prob .