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[Danhedonia]

No use dwelling on GUI issues - they're there, and being addressed. Instead, this is a note to someone - we don't know who - at the mythic corporate office.

Here's what I really think as I look at this site - there is no captain of this ship, and you have no idea what you're really doing or why.

Someone at GC (is that who owns this? Sorry, I was busy dying of stress trying to build revenue for an actual Fortune 200 company) should ask themselves this question: why are we here? Indications are that no one knows.

Here are those indicators:

* "this site hasn't made money in years." Really? Someone is actually studying and tracking how this site is driving purchases? Each time some poor HC fool (me) sees a thread and gets an attack of GAS and buys something, that's being observed? No, it isn't.

* "the people at corporate said ..." posts from Craig and Phil. I have great respect,for both ofmyourmprofessional accomplishments, but this Wizard of Oz must come out from behind the curtain. Very, very few organizations that interface with the public try to hide the identities of those who are accountable (the Church of Scientology comes to mind - cool company to keep there). If your not ultimately in charge, then lets hear from whichever VP of marketing it is that makes those decisions and keeps,tossing you back out here to defend their actions. Please consider my genuine offer of $50 to start a fund to rent them a pair of testicles (or a spine) for the occasion.

* "some of the content on here ..." In 2013, one knows exactly which content is popular. If you're not running those metrics, it means you have abandoned the curation of the site, despite whatever the outward appearances are. I'm sure you do run page views - but that's quite 2002, isn't it? Do the real metrics on length of visit, etc. Oddly, in an Internet world choking with CRM tracking, I'm served very few cookies by HC. Huh.

* "this is free / a privilege / we need ads ..." No. The entire site is one big ad for gear. One teeming with unrecognized power and untapped potential. This is neither a privilege nor a charity nor a profit center for any sane business person. It is a public Internet forum hosted by a large corporation. To,quote an estimable TV host, "that's a thing."

* "we can't fix everything." Yes, you can. It's called adequate staffing. That GC has put two musical people of the caliber of Craig Anderton and Phil O'Keefe in this position (of development interfacing and project management) simply flaunts the clown shoes you are wearing. Hire professionals. Pay them. Watch your results. Let the famous music guys serve their purpose as community leaders, content beacons, and moderators.

* "first this happened, so then that happened, so we had to ..." Did the dog eat your homework, too? 'Execution' is the big buzz word. Hint: once you're offering excuses, you're really saying 'we don't care to get this right.'

And that's both your loss (financially - I can't imagine a more pathetically blown opportunity for driving business than this) and ours (as participants in a vibrant community).

Somewhere in Africa at this very moment a person just like each of us is dying under horrible circumstances - if HC goes away, I'll be sad, but it's not an epic tragedy.

But it will serve as a great case study of how to fail at Internet marketing. Which, last time I heard about GC's balance sheet, might have come in handy.

[Hoppy Shimko]

oh snappy snap!

[baob]

I haven't come to the same detailed conclusions, but I was already reading between the lines of Phil's responses and inferring organisational dysfunction.  In particular, his claim that (if memory serves) they (the mods) did try to hold back the launch until some of the technical issues were addressed, but they were overriden.

A year or two ago I worked as a web developer for a company where the web development team were constantly trying to improve the websites, particularly in respect of usability, and constantly being thwarted by other parts of the company, notably the marketing department. It sucked. I now work somewhere where my skills and opinion are valued. I could be wrong but I suspect Phil and co are suffering in the same situation I was in.

I know the original need for a change on HC was driven by technical needs (timeouts, outages, whatever) but all the stuff we're currently hearing about decisions driven by advertising needs points to that technical motivation being hijacked by other parts of the business.

Great post. I hope that someone in HC besides Phil and co are reading this.

[Danhedonia]

I feel very badly for Phil and Craig.

And cannot imagine what the internal conversation is like. Would probably make "the Office" look functional.

[lefort_1]

I too feel bad for Craig and Phil. Folks caught in the crossfire have a difficult existance.

My own take is a touch different that yours...tho I do believe they can coexist.

http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Feedback/Exactly-how-close-can-Lithium-get-the-forum-to-the-old/m-p...

The second post is mine, and only the top half of it is executive-summary-worthy.

I do believe the direction (away from the old forum style) IS intentional, and it is targeted at gaining that fiscal leverage on the substantial marketshare that could (and at one time did) populate this place. That's what the Lithium folks are all about, and this is their initial of what that will look like.

There's gotta be a myth that relates to this, or perhaps a movie  plotline that, by analogy, explains what's happening: Perhaps a modification on that Star Drek movie where a planet gets "terraformed" to bring about a new Eden. Except in this Eden, there are (a) lots of bugs, (b) an incomplete vision of what to place in front of the populace to please them and drive them to create music and buy musical stuff, and (c) they didn't eliinate all the previous-existing lifeforms. In fact, they are useful at debugging the system. But the nasty ones (myself included) will tend to dominate conversations and keep the teaming hordes of 13-25 year old cattle, er buyers (dammit I want a strikethru font for my online irony) from overtaking this site and start working their little social-network magic.

Gc has no interest in making someone like me happy. I do not buy new stuff. I make a good bit of my own stuff. I buy used. My musical buying patterns, if shared with the young ones, could result in a net downturn of their business. The kind of foyum I'd like would have a concise Emporium, like BLEEP. This is counterproductive for GC, and could undercut some small percentage of sales. Unlikely we will ever see it.

Ah, I'm jus rambling now...it's 5 AM or some such silliness out here. The dogs are back in the house and their "business has been done". I'm going back to my morning coffee.

[goosefartfan]

best post I've seen in the new world order here

[Danhedonia]

Lefort, I read your post. I'm certain you nailed at least two whiteboard meetings. But I have seen "duh ... I don't get it, what's this here interwebz?" at large places and recently. I would just say that GC doesn't have a vision for HC, and are just rearranging deck chairs. As margins slide, new initiatives become hard to justify, especially to those who don't log on to Internet fora. One of my friends from college is a big mucky muck at Bain, and I've worked for startups that they've funded. They're not bad people or businessmen (and they are all men), but they don't intuitively understand pop culture (look at the overpayment for Warner Music). Which is not to say that GC does, or could tie their own shoes if their covenants required it.

There's some value to HC, it's not being leveraged much from what I see, and there's little hope of that realization occurring.

They really would be better off selling it, and I don't say that out of whininess. When you have something valuable and don't know what to do with it, you sell it. At least now it has some value. In three years? Maybe.

I'm also certain that HC doesn't show a profit, and one wonders if you bought it, if you could find some ways to make it profitable.

[Mikeo]

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Danhedonia wrote:
I feel very badly for Phil and Craig.

And cannot imagine what the internal conversation is like. Would probably make "the Office" look functional.

---

I don't really feel bad for anyone.

I world in a lab, where many decisions are made by peeps that not only don't have science degrees, but might not even know how to get to my labs without a directory map. I live out there dreams.

It's the way it is

Phil, Craig, and Jon are writers and reviewers of musical gear and consumer electronics content. That's probably why they were hired in the first place and that's where the will stay. They are not web designers, and the whole thing was outsourced.

Ryan and Company have designed sites for for many big companies and it has a lot to do with who has the control now.

Maybe the big shots here, knew the big shot at Disney and were talking over cocktails and the asked who designed you web page.

One phone call and a hand shake on price is all it took.

One of the issues was the age and speed of the servers. This ain't an issues any more cause it's Ryan and Company that is now incharge of keeping things going and not the Guitar Center/ Musicains Friend. The GC/MF can get back to what they do, and that sell music gear and music related consumer electronics.

I hope this makes some kind of sense.

[lefort_1]

To Dan H

well IFF this place stayed in the hands of GC, perhaps they could do something like

1.  Monitor tags/scan for product names that threads/posters are talking about. Then:
2. Use those those as indicators for "what is trending". Then:
3. Bring up an inobtrusive link-ad to one of their sales sites that would try to sell the up-trending item to anyone who clicked on it.

In fact, I'm sure that's what they have planned. It's how these sites are supposed to work.

Of course, if the user's aren't going to Tag, then it gets more laborious for GC.

And also, many of the most talked-about items here tend to be either a) negative discussions about products, b) negative discussions about manufacturers, and/or c) discussions about stuff that is no longer being made (ie "vintage" stuff).  These are more difficult to be turned into sales. And as a site-user, the last thing you want to see after flaming Zvex or Fuller or Nic or Marc or Paul or Foxx or blahblahblah is to see an AD for their products... so the differentiation between positive and negative thread content is an important one... this can be done, but the coding isn't simple, straightforward, or foolproof. Hell, if you have the texttyping skills of "Alien", you'll break the bleepin system in no time flat. (much love to Alien...just using your style as an example my friend).

Ooooof...too much detail for a whiteboard talk. back to the executive slummery:

If there was properly coded interprotronix in this site, plenty of contexturally-proper sales opportunites could be presented to user in an inoffensive manner. I've dabbled in a thread or two that talked about current products, but I haven't seen the ads change yet (from the generic Stupid Deal ads...how ironic!). So I am assuming Lithium hasn't got that part up and running yet.

Jeebus, I wish they'd change the sidebar stufff.....so cold.

I gotta go feed the critters in the barn and I don't like being reminded it's 26 and foggy outside.

[lefort_1]

To Mike

Actually, no, I had a bit of a time following some things....maybe watch the spellcheck, cuz it may be wordswapping on you.

I too have 'lived in a lab', if you will, developing both hardware and software projects, before moving on to do ther, more people-related thigns.

From what I've read, Phil and Craig are not paid for what they do. They volunteer their time as mods, and in return they are given a platform on which to publish their reviews and opinions. That's my best understanding of how they fit in.

I'm trying to find the Ryan and Company you refer to....I thought Lithium was their contractor. Perhaps they have someone else involved as well? Probably so...I would hope that GC would not hand the task of interwebz design over to the same inhouse folks that put together their **bleep** system (that's "Point of Sale", people get your minds out of the gutter). These are very different worlds. Anyway.... I'd be interested in find ing out who "Ryan and company" is. Do you have a link to a website? I've read thru the Lithium site, trying to understand more about them, their strengths, their self-image, their weaknesses.

I totally agree on the hardware/server comments...it's tough to run with cheetahs when you are riding a brontosaurus.

:morning coffee salute:

[RoadRanger]

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lefort_1 wrote:

From what I've read, Phil and Craig are not paid for what they do. They volunteer their time as mods, and in return they are given a platform on which to publish their reviews and opinions. That's my best understanding of how they fit in.

I'm pretty sure that they are compensated - at least in part.

[baob]

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RoadRanger wrote:

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lefort_1 wrote:

From what I've read, Phil and Craig are not paid for what they do. They volunteer their time as mods, and in return they are given a platform on which to publish their reviews and opinions. That's my best understanding of how they fit in.

I'm pretty sure that they are compensated - at least in part.

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Phil has said that's he's paid for the articles he writes. He was a mod for a good while without compensation, and from what I can gather he's still not paid for that aspect of the job. 

[Anderton]

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RoadRanger wrote:

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lefort_1 wrote:

From what I've read, Phil and Craig are not paid for what they do. They volunteer their time as mods, and in return they are given a platform on which to publish their reviews and opinions. That's my best understanding of how they fit in.

I'm pretty sure that they are compensated - at least in part.

---

We are indeed compensated, as we are very involved with writing articles, producing the weekly newsletter (I wish there was a way to subscribe on the home page), trade show coverage, etc. We do spend more time than we're contracted to spend, and a lot of that goes into the forums; so in a sense, the forum time veers into pro bono. But it's also a fun part of the gig.

The other mods are volunteers, and in my opinion they are saints.

As to the initial post, thank you for posting that. Also, thanks to those who recognize the situation in which Phil, Jon, and I have been placed.

Finally, just as a point of accuracy...the revamping of the site was supposed to harken back to the original Harmony Central, which was a lot more than just forums (particularly user reviews). Traditionally, the forums were 50% of the traffic, and everything else was the other 50%. AudioFanzine is a good example of this model.

I appreciate the thoughtfulness that has gone into the comments in this thread.

[lefort_1]

Hey Craig,

I'm glad to hear that you and Phil are compensated somewhat, and you're right about the other Mods. Of course, tho, you realize that now that compensation has been brought up, we'll have to talk about proper monetary measures for us, your QA team.

My usual consult fee is $125/hour for active work, and $75 for loitering by the water cooler. I figure it's been a 50/50 split so lets agree on $100/hour and a $50/new-bug bounty, um-kay?

Sinsnearly,

your Bug-Finding/Enhancement-Requesting Team.

/ me being a smug, sarcastic bastqard 

or wait...do we need to change the "/" = "end" jargon? ...cuz that changed with the new format too....

[Danhedonia]

Craig, you're welcome for the thoughtfulness of the comments, but really, we're the ones who owe you thanks - you're "Electronic Projects" was a big deal in my life and it's a thrill to be able to thank you personally for it, if even only in digital format.

As for the situation - it's ... just pathetic.  YOU are supposed to be writing, and perhaps - should you be so kind - modding.  Not dealing with all of this stuff.

Fast forwarding, here's a few ways that someone with a head on their shoulders might leverage HC to work harder for GC:

* have HC-only discount codes and sales.  Make them worthwhile, and make them stick. 
* have GC marketing staff post in the fora - the Digitech rep does, and not everyone here worships their stuff, but I think it's safe to say most folks appreciate when people from a gear company (from pedal builders to Kurt at Rondo) pop up here.  It drives sales.

* use GC locations as a focal point for HC get togethers. 

* revive reviews, and link to them from the GC website pages.  Yes, you'd want to filter a bit, but it's better than what's there now.  Also, perhaps links to "last five threads that mentioned this product" from the website.  On balance, I think the negative comments are not as dissuasive as the positive comments encourage purchasing.  And really, wouldn't GC get a PR bump if they had links to a forum that warned people off of the real dog products out there?  It's one thing to say "I prefer this fuzz pedal to that one" vs. "this thing is a **bleep**." 

* coupons for <$10 freebies after 10,000th post, birthday, etc. 

It's really not magic nor a miracle to use a website / online community to drive offline behavior, especially to retail locations specializing in niche stuff like, oh, I don't know - high end music gear? 

And the absolute lack of IT expertise just screams "CHEAP!"  And THAT is, I'm afraid, a typical story.  This is true: at a huge multinational bank, in their "global risk management" division (read: hedge funds), the president of the division perpetually refused to hire a CIO.  Lack of funds?  Nah.  Plenty o' money in those places.  Nope, it was cuz 1. "anyone can buy a bleeping laptpo and plug it in" and 2. he didn't want another top executive challenging him. All at the low, low cost of having fund managers with computers that were unreliable during trading hours.  True story.

The most sad and comical part of this is GC seeming oblivious to what HC really is: a big ad for gear, run by and for gearheads.  Yeah, can't see how THAT might help ... :: eyeroll ::

**bleep** about the GUI is valid, but will recede in time.  It's the larger questions that will really dictate how good or bad HC will be in five years.

[HKSblade2]

^

FWIW since I have been here (much longer than my new handle says) there has been many fora interaction from designers, builders, and mfg reps. Many have long since gone.

Some for their own decisions, others just simply got ran out by smug commentary only made to inflame the participant representative. The guy from Digitech disappeared for a long time. Came back when the next product came out and debate over iOS dongling of their iOStomp and RP modelers. Many of the modders, builders and factory reps bailed on this place long before teh HC2.0. It was attitudes that fueled those decisions. Its also one of the things they as company officials must consider when having interaction with such a diverse user base.

We can only assume the reasons or intentions of GC/MF. We are not in the discussions and don't have a clue really. Many here should take a step back and breathe. See how things go. In my years here, I have seen a few exoduses during changes. Most come back. Some will not. Provided this site (its a site not just a forum) can successfully maintain its user experience as friendly, attractive to business owners and developers, many of those former mfg reps and participants can return. New ones may find this place great for their business.

I will add any rep or mfg/designer had better have thick skin to go with their own egos to survive HC. In a way its sad to say but is the utmost truth regarding their level of participation.

[RoadRanger]

^ Yah, we can be brutal LOL .

[Danhedonia]

Yes, if you are going to be professionally participating in an internet forum, you're going to have an asymmettric relationship with it: you will have to maintain dignity, while others do not show you courtesy.

Kind of like a lot of brick and mortar retail jobs.

There are plenty of ways - plenty - to 'keep peace' online.  I don't like sharing personal details on here, but I will tell you that I currently work in an area where there are 100,000 users on a platform that we operate, and is held to a very high legal standard for oversight.

It's technology - you shape it to help suit your aims.  THAT is why you hire professionals.  So you can have a whiteboard meeting where you say "we want this forum over here to have more oversight, filtering, etc., and have it be for company reps ..." etc.

Human behavior is not 100% controllable, but your website sure is.

GC needs to make a choice about what HC is going to be, then plan around that.  This "whoah! I GUESS we should take care of this charity thingie we kinda are responsible for ... kinda ..." is juvenile and brand-reducing.

If they choose to keep the site, they need to hire a responsible, accountable and accomplished director for the site.  That is NOT a content person (sorry, Craig and Phil, but trust me this isn't a job you'd want), but someone who is in charge and responsible for taking HC from where it is to where it needs to be.  That's called executive leadership.

Second, they need to hire a real, salaried developer or at least a savvy, veteran site administrator. 

If they price those out and don't think they can recover that cost via lead generation here, then sell it. 

Right now it's a clown shoe store, and I'm in aisle three looking at size 42 red broughams.

[RoadRanger]

Personally I think GC/MF would be better off roling the user reviews and articles into their own brand sites and spinning off the forums to whomever is silly enough to want to pay for their upkeep. I just can't imagine the forums have any business value to them. Just put the forums up for auction - I'll start at minus one million dollars LOL.

[Danhedonia]

Agree RR, except that I think you don't separate the two - the forums drive the reviews which drive the forums which drive the purchases.  Splitting up the site would reduce the synergy of "one stop" user experience, and ultimately GC's task here is to figure out this super simple algebra problem:

"X page views + Y marketing strategies = $Z of new sales"

They already know X; Y is under their control (though I don't see a lot of uh, good initiative there).  Which means they ought to be able to solve for Z and make some choices.  Hint: Y is the crucial variable (snarky tone not aimed at you).