Electric Guitars

[axegrinder]

Am I hearing this right? The America first camp is now concerned for workers' rights in South Korea? G.M.A.F.B. I can't stand the have your cake eat it too hypocrasy. I won't say more as it would get political.

[John Backlund]

I won't say more as it would get political.

That's where it's headed, so I'm out of this particular 'conversation' too. I'll restrict my comments to those directly concerning the guitars....and I must say that I'm very pleased to see this thread go on for ten pages, 90% of it very informative and constructive in general.

:cool:

[Kevman]

Good thread.

[soundcreation]

I'm not looking for sympathy, I'm just telling you what my situation is so I don't somehow get branded as some kind of 'corporate fat cat' that likes to run over people for a buck. I'm a schmuck with a pencil and some ideas. I live well enough and don't complain about it.



I'm aware of Cort's treatment of their workers, but you said "factories", plural.... what other Korean manufacturers besides Cort have moved out of the country? You're painting with a very broad brush here. Why don't you wait and see what develops (if anything, this is far from a done deal at this point) before you bust our balls over our hypothetical mistreatment of workers by association. Besides, I'm too busy mistreating myself at the moment.

Never thought you were.

The title of this thread is "...introduces new Korean made models"

You obviously don't understand my point. It's not about factories leaving. It's about cort uprooting their entire operation because their employees voiced a very small very valid concern over their treatment. What that means is Cort would rather just move to a country where they can exploit labor more freely than dip a tiny bit into their profits to improve the lives of their Korean work force.

As I said, the end result of that will be other factory workers in Korea will keep quiet in the face of abuse just so they don't loose their jobs.

The factory you have in mind may or may not treat their workers fairly....I don't know. But to say that it's "unfair" to think that factory work in Korea probably falls into a similar situation across the board is naive to say the least. Fact is...if labor rights are weak in a country then most likely everyone is taking advantage. History has usually proven that correct.

It's up to you though. You can give the "benefit of the doubt" that the one factory and not question them at all. That's your choice. I personally think it's more likely to be a systemic issue there and if one can't be entirely sure...then the best bet is to do no harm in the first place.

[soundcreation]

I am happy to see more concern for working conditions in recent years...although I am not sure why some of you seem to be placing almost all of that responsibility on Backlund & Co when there are corporations that have both more impact and larger profit margins that can afford to encourage real action: Fender, Gibson, and heck, Apple or any other consumer electronics manufacturer...do you boycott those too?

Yes...I do. And also it's very rare to be in a situation where you get to ask someone who is about to embark on doing this kind of manufacturing....if they've thought about that issue. If I could speak to the owners of Fender and Gibson or Apple I would ask them all the exact same thing.

[soundcreation]

Am I hearing this right? The America first camp is now concerned for workers' rights in South Korea? G.M.A.F.B. I can't stand the have your cake eat it too hypocrasy. I won't say more as it would get political.

Since this is obviously a shot at me... I haven't said a thing about "america first" in this thread. I do believe ultimately that if you want to improve things at home then keeping as many jobs at home as possible is a logical step. But if one were to outsource then they should at least have a minimal ethical responsibility to see that their product is manufactured responsibly. Would you not agree with this? You all can claim that this is "just getting political" but we all know that's a cop out. A lazy way of saying "I don't want to deal with it"...."I'd rather just place my order and not think about where the product I'm buying comes from and how it's made". Again...your choice.

[Frets99]

I asked that this thread not be made political but rather celebrate the launching of a dream by members of our community in an endeavor that this forum has had the chance to watch and participate in from it's infancy. I respect the desire to advocate for the civil and social rights of all citizens of the world. However, the same point could have been made in another thread without singling out a fledgling enterprise by our members. I don't respect the "American worker first ideal" because it is antiquated in a global economy and can be reduced to Americans deserve to eat more than the rest of the world. I appreciate the power of the pocketbook in response to attempting to change a perceived ill in the world. I do not respect the overblown sense of self importance and righteousness that allows some people to apply their agendas indiscriminately, and in situations quite disproportionate to the overall application of said agenda. Time and place. Again, many small American companies have found ways to make products that we want at price points we can afford. That cannot be done without outsourcing. The result of that outsourcing has been the near utopian ideal of spreading of wealth and potential that we have experienced in our country around the world. I support the outsourcing and the jobs it creates both overseas and in the US. I respect the desire to make conditions safe for workers. I also support our in house entrepreneurs and revel in their aspirations.

[mistersully]

in fairness to soundcreation, this is a subject he's consistently been vocal about... in many threads

now a thread was started saying "we're having guitars built in korea"... so he asked if the workers conditions were known.... i fail to see the big deal in that... it was only after he was asked to elaborate that he got more involved... then people responded... he responded back

anyone who thinks he's singled out this thread to make some sort of point is mistaken... it's been something he's given his opinion on from the get-go

[soundcreation]

I asked that this thread not be made political but rather celebrate the launching of a dream by members of our community in an endeavor that this forum has had the chance to watch and participate in from it's infancy. I respect the desire to advocate for the civil and social rights of all citizens of the world. However, the same point could have been made in another thread without singling out a fledgling enterprise by our members. I don't respect the "American worker first ideal" because it is antiquated in a global economy and can be reduced to Americans deserve to eat more than the rest of the world. I appreciate the power of the pocketbook in response to attempting to change a perceived ill in the world. I do not respect the overblown sense of self importance and righteousness that allows some people to apply their agendas indiscriminately, and in situations quite disproportionate to the overall application of said agenda. Time and place. Again, many small American companies have found ways to make products that we want at price points we can afford. That cannot be done without outsourcing. The result of that outsourcing has been the near utopian ideal of spreading of wealth and potential that we have experienced in our country around the world. I support the outsourcing and the jobs it creates both overseas and in the US. I respect the desire to make conditions safe for workers. I also support our in house entrepreneurs and revel in their aspirations.

So basically you're saying I can raise issues that are directly related to the original topic but I can't (or shouldn't) in the original topic? Isn't that kind of like saying to...say...London Olympic protesters...."hey...I respect your right to protest the Olympics...just do it from New York"? You say "time and place" but with the attitudes around here is seems like there is never an appropriate time or place to raise concerns. When would be a better time to ask someone who is considering doing their manufacturing in a country with a dodgy record, if they've thought about that aspect? And I don't think I'm singling out anyone. I've brought up the same questions in threads regarding agile, rondo, and all the other HCEG favorite outsourced brands. And predictably the response is just like this.....an air of frustration because a difficult question is being asked, yet never actually responding with any detail. And then an effort to make the person asking the question look like the bad guy...lol. Basically a head in the sand attitude that "some questions are best left unasked". And judging by the frustrated and defensive response I got from John...it seems pretty apparent to me it's a aspect he really hadn't even considered. I asked before......Is this forum just about unconditional support under all circumstances? If you really "respect the desire to make conditions safer for workers" then why would you have an issue with the question I'm asking in this thread? Because this IS the appropriate place and the appropriate time.

[RaVenCAD]

I agree, I don't think what sound is asking is unreasonable. As a business, Bruce should already be asking these questions of his supplier. This isn't like ordering a box of parts from Korea and installing them on your guitars. The actions of this venture will provide work for multiple individuals in Korea, and the working conditions of those individuals should be a concern for any business.

[cbh5150]

All I'm gonna say is good luck Bruce and John :thu: - you guys are of the few TRULY unique builders out there, and I wish you nothing but success!

[jjpistols]

in fairness to soundcreation, this is a subject he's consistently been vocal about... in many threads now a thread was started saying "we're having guitars built in korea"... so he asked if the workers conditions were known.... i fail to see the big deal in that... it was only after he was asked to elaborate that he got more involved... then people responded... he responded back anyone who thinks he's singled out this thread to make some sort of point is mistaken... it's been something he's given his opinion on from the get-go

Agreed. I wish he would have chosen to not bring it up in this thread, since it's another potential distraction from the good news and discussion about John and Bruce's work. But soundcreation has been nothing if not mannerly and reasonable. If other posters lose their shit, I'd say it's their own inability to deal with life and not soundcreation's doing. At the same time, I'd hate for john to feel like he was being picked on over this. I don't think either has any ill will. Maybe they can start another thread about this issue and later collaborate on a song?

[Elias Graves]

That's where it's headed, so I'm out of this particular 'conversation' too. I'll restrict my comments to those directly concerning the guitars....and I must say that I'm very pleased to see this thread go on for ten pages, 90% of it very informative and constructive in general. :cool:

I'm curious about Bruce's comment that the Alumitones aren't perfected yet. Any insight there?

[BeanoBoy]

I'm usually conservative when it comes to guitar shapes but this guitar interests me. Looks cool.

[Flatspotter]

I'm curious about Bruce's comment that the Alumitones aren't perfected yet. Any insight there?

Me too, especially since the brochure/price list shows them as a standard feature for the JBD-400.

[soundcreation]

Agreed. I wish he would have chosen to not bring it up in this thread, since it's another potential distraction from the good news and discussion about John and Bruce's work. But soundcreation has been nothing if not mannerly and reasonable. If other posters lose their shit, I'd say it's their own inability to deal with life and not soundcreation's doing. At the same time, I'd hate for john to feel like he was being picked on over this. I don't think either has any ill will. Maybe they can start another thread about this issue and later collaborate on a song?

Believe me I wish them success too, but not if it comes at the cost of real people. I've been a big fan of John's unique designs ever since he first started showing them off as sketches.....I think it's totally cool that it's gotten to this level. But this is an issue I think gets ignored for convenience sake. It's so easy just hit up these factories overseas and think nothing more of it. I mean are there absolutely NO other options available? Does Godin not do this kind of thing? Or would they if asked? Warmoth? I know he could get them made in Japan at the Terada factory or the Fujigen factory. Godin puts out pretty cheap guitars made in N America. Anyway....it's their decision. I would just hope at the very least they try to find out some information about the working conditions at the factory they intend to use, in Korea. Hopefully it's a decent place to work.

[Bruce Bennett]

Never thought you were.

The title of this thread is "...introduces new Korean made models"

You obviously don't understand my point. It's not about factories leaving. It's about cort uprooting their entire operation because their employees voiced a very small very valid concern over their treatment. What that means is Cort would rather just move to a country where they can exploit labor more freely than dip a tiny bit into their profits to improve the lives of their Korean work force.

As I said, the end result of that will be other factory workers in Korea will keep quiet in the face of abuse just so they don't loose their jobs.

The factory you have in mind may or may not treat their workers fairly....I don't know. But to say that it's "unfair" to think that factory work in Korea probably falls into a similar situation across the board is naive to say the least. Fact is...if labor rights are weak in a country then most likely everyone is taking advantage. History has usually proven that correct.

It's up to you though. You can give the "benefit of the doubt" that the one factory and not question them at all. That's your choice. I personally think it's more likely to be a systemic issue there and if one can't be entirely sure...then the best bet is to do no harm in the first place.

first off. Why are we talking about Cort? We ( J.Backlund Design) are NOT useing them.. we are useing UNSUNG they are an independantly owned factory just like us. we liked that.

and second, Cort is Owned by Westhiemer Corp. here in America. http://www.westheimercorp.com/
Go fuss at them about Cort's situation. any "evil" mandates that are implemented inside the cort factory, are handed directly from Westheimer Corp here in America.

and Pneumatic.. yes, I AM a HUGE a$$hole. who cares, that is whats required to get this kind of a project DONE.
Just look at Henry Juskiwizic ( Gibson) don't you think hes an A$$hole too?
due to the UNBELIEVABLE amount of Sceptisizim & Traditionalizim in this market, I don't know how any new guitar related products ever get to market WITHOUT an a$$hole driving the He!! outta it.

as for the whole economic part of t his discussion, Right now, at this point in the companies history, I'm worried about 3 jobs Mine, Steve, and Kevins. once those 3 are stabilized then yes i do believe that we will need guys to unpack clean setup repack and ship a lot of korean products thats at least 3 new jobs right there. for a total of 6.
also we plan to add cases to this line thats more work for the case companies Plus we want to add an assecories lineup with parts to make your Korean Retronix look and play closer to its American counterpart. so that more work for us and the suppliers.
Right now we have to get this small snowball to start to roll, once it starts, then it up to us to keep it rolling. in this economy, thats a tall order...but, IF We can sustain a steady product flow through sales. then I will likely increase the staff of trained luthiers in the American shop to help with the back log ( we are a year backordered now and I'm the only man here) so thats another 2 higher paying jobs. and We want to offer beneifits as well.

so if you look at where we are now, verse where we COULD be by this time next year.. then yes. I do see this korean move as a way to grow some jobs here at home PLUS feed some koreans too. I'd call that a win-win senario.

[Bruce Bennett]

Believe me I wish them success too, but not if it comes at the cost of real people.

I've been a big fan of John's unique designs ever since he first started showing them off as sketches.....I think it's totally cool that it's gotten to this level. But this is an issue I think gets ignored for convenience sake. It's so easy just hit up these factories overseas and think nothing more of it.

I mean are there absolutely NO other options available? Does Godin not do this kind of thing? Or would they if asked? Warmoth? I know he could get them made in Japan at the Terada factory or the Fujigen factory. Godin puts out pretty cheap guitars made in N America.

Anyway....it's their decision. I would just hope at the very least they try to find out some information about the working conditions at the factory they intend to use, in Korea. Hopefully it's a decent place to work.

Man, it is Costing REAL PEOPLE RIGHT NOW.. ME and my partners for starters ! and even John too!

how many American made guitars do you currently own and did you buy them used or new?
better yet how much American made stuff of any kind do you currently own that you bought new? and remember "used" doesn't count.

the people that have known me for a long time here know that I fought HARD to get people to BUY AMERICAN.. but NO they "Just couldnt' afford it"
so now the little whiners can suck it up and watch their jobs leave. EXACTLY AS I PREDICTED years ago.


Godin said "No"
Zion said "maybe" but they would cost the same as us doing it. so no beneifit.
everyone kept scream'in "we want nothing less than World class guitars at CHEAP prices"

that spells K.o.r.e.a... no way around that. they won't pay American Labor rates, and if you think 75K is a lot of money, then you don't even want to know what it would cost to do what Gibson is doing with the 500 units per day and 3 models of Loss Leaders..
yes thats right 3 models don't make a Gibson a DIME and the ONLY reasons they make them is.
1. to keep 650 workers working.
2. to keep entry level buyers buying "Gibsons" and not something asian made.

If I could, I would, but the amount of cash to do that is beyond anything, short of winning a MAJOR lottery. ( over 300 mill to start and nearly a mill a day, just to keep it running)

[Elias Graves]

When did Gibson stop doing contract work? I wonder why?

[Bruce Bennett]

When did Gibson stop doing contract work? I wonder why?

early 50s i believe was the last of the so called "house branding" althought they kept making "kalamazoos" untl the mid 60s

and because they decided that they were helping their competition beat themselves out of a sale.