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Super Contributor
MarkydeSad
Posts: 22,724
Registered: ‎01-27-2006

Re: Gear Snobbery

Interesting post, Lee

I get really embarrassed even walking into music shops, let alone trying out gear. My wife once told me I was the least rock 'n' roll person she'd ever met, and it's made me a bit paranoid and insecure

Therefore, I tend to buy gear based on reviews I read online. I usually rush into the music shop, hurredly buy what I want, and rush out again

But most of the gear I've bought over the years has been fine. So I suppose I've been lucky :smileyhappy:

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Super Contributor
UstadKhanAli
Posts: 19,271
Registered: ‎08-25-2005

Re: Gear Snobbery

Trying out gear is one of the reasons to go to an actual store instead of buying it online.  I like to try out gear for a while, seeing how it feels if it's a guitar, how it sounds if it's an amp or whatever, etc.  I almost never have a problem with this.  I mean, why would I?  Often, I'm *encouraged* to take my time and try out gear for a while.  This is what they want, after all...someone to walk into their store and take an interest in their products. 

Remember, people at a store are there to help you.  If they are not helpful, then go somewhere else.  If it's not a good situation to check out stuff, go somewhere else.  

If they are nice and helpful, patronize the store and tell other people.  Almost all the time from personal experience, stores fall into this category.

 

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Moderator
blue2blue
Posts: 25,850
Registered: ‎07-19-2005

Re: Gear Snobbery

[ Edited ]

As much as I love great sound, and I do,  it's simply the packaging, the wrapping.

It's fun on Christmas morning to open up all the pretty packages -- but, at least for most of us, ultimately, you're listening to music and got into hi fi because you like music.

That said... there will always be those who are more into their cars than they are into actually going somewhere.

 



day job | A Year of Songs | music and social stuff
| mutant pop on facebook | roots acoustic on facebook | ThisIsMyJam



The chorus seems a little weak... I think it needs more lasers.
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Super Contributor
Posts: 5,659
Registered: ‎07-25-2005

Re: Gear Snobbery


blue2blue wrote:

As much as I love great sound, and I do,  it's simply the packaging, the wrapping.

It's fun on Christmas morning to open up all the pretty packages -- but, at least for most of us, ultimately, you're listening to music and got into hi fi because you like music.

That said... there will always be those who are more into their cars than they are into actually going somewhere.

 


hmmm, thats an interesting and accurate way to look at it. Some people are seriously into possessing stuff, not because they actually need it or use it, they simply just want it. I don`t understand that mentality at all.

Where stone meets sky, we realize; love is the only destination.
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Moderator
blue2blue
Posts: 25,850
Registered: ‎07-19-2005

Re: Gear Snobbery

[ Edited ]

Ernest Buckley wrote:

blue2blue wrote:

As much as I love great sound, and I do,  it's simply the packaging, the wrapping.

It's fun on Christmas morning to open up all the pretty packages -- but, at least for most of us, ultimately, you're listening to music and got into hi fi because you like music.

That said... there will always be those who are more into their cars than they are into actually going somewhere.

 


hmmm, thats an interesting and accurate way to look at it. Some people are seriously into possessing stuff, not because they actually need it or use it, they simply just want it. I don`t understand that mentality at all.


Yeah, me, I'm always embarrassed to have bought something that I don't use. But, I'm pretty wised up to myself and gear at this point. My days of throwing down money on a lark are over.

Maybe it's because I've pretty much always played beater guitars but would occasionally run into guys with really expensive guitars who could barely play or who just had them on display, but I take what some might call an almost perverse pride on how cheap my guitars are. And THAT's what I really care about. Recording gear, that's just a means to an end (though I definitely have a soft spot for a few pieces, anyhow). 

So, taking 'pride' in having something expensive? It ain't me, babe.

Pretty much the opp.

 

 

Now... all that said... if the sky should open and a 50's Corvette or T-Bird dropped into my lap... I might make some concessions... like not driving it to the local supermarket or hardware store. After all, that's not really a car. It's a fabulous jewel-like artifact from a time that will never come again.

 



day job | A Year of Songs | music and social stuff
| mutant pop on facebook | roots acoustic on facebook | ThisIsMyJam



The chorus seems a little weak... I think it needs more lasers.
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Super Contributor
learjeff
Posts: 1,086
Registered: ‎07-25-2006

Re: Gear Snobbery

[ Edited ]
I might just be an anti-gear snob. I poke fun at the guys who post that you have to have a high-dollar audio interface, when IMHO the money would so often be better spent on a better (used!) guitar and using your laptop's line inputs.

My main keyboard is one I bought in 1997. My top tier is a 2002 design I got used at a bargain. I don't even have powered speakers for monitors, but folks tell me my rig sounds great. (I am a bit of a stereo snob. It's what I like, and I'm willing to pay the extra coin and do the extra lifting.) Keyboard players tend to dis Roland keyboard amps, and yeah they don't sound as good as other stuff, but I've played a friend's rig, and if you can't make it work maybe you're not so much of a keyboard player.

But I do get snobbish about gear that's just plain not up to the job. I use a powered mixer myself (Yamaha EMX5000), but I've never heard a box-shaped powered mixer that didn't seem to suck. Is that in my head? (Exception: Soundcraft GigRack -- but it's not really box-shaped!) Or playing a piano through a guitar or bass combo amp (yech!)

So, I guess I'm not so much a gear snob as a sound snob. If it sounds like crap, I feel disdain. Unless it's played so damn well that it makes up for it, or it's the best setup someone could afford. I'm also a bit of an anti-ignorance snob. I get a laugh at all the home studio pics I see with expensive nearfield monitors pushed back against a wall.

I have to not be snobby about people who have better gear than their playing ability, because that's what I try to do myself! I'd rather not have any excuses.

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Super Contributor
learjeff
Posts: 1,086
Registered: ‎07-25-2006

Re: Gear Snobbery

[ Edited ]
WTF is happening to my blank lines? I hate monolithic blocks of text! GRRRRR.

I had to put HTML paragraph tags in!

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Super Contributor
MarkydeSad
Posts: 22,724
Registered: ‎01-27-2006

Re: Gear Snobbery


UstadKhanAli wrote:

Trying out gear is one of the reasons to go to an actual store instead of buying it online.  I like to try out gear for a while, seeing how it feels if it's a guitar, how it sounds if it's an amp or whatever, etc.  I almost never have a problem with this.  I mean, why would I?  Often, I'm *encouraged* to take my time and try out gear for a while.  This is what they want, after all...someone to walk into their store and take an interest in their products. 

Remember, people at a store are there to help you.  If they are not helpful, then go somewhere else.  If it's not a good situation to check out stuff, go somewhere else.  

If they are nice and helpful, patronize the store and tell other people.  Almost all the time from personal experience, stores fall into this category.

 



I'm a rubbish musician, Ken. I don't like making a fool of myself in public

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Super Contributor
rasputin1963
Posts: 6,582
Registered: ‎02-10-2006

Re: Gear Snobbery

[ Edited ]

Whenever I think about gear snobbery,    I am reminded of the making of that great English New Wave record of 1979,     "Money (That's What I Want)"  by The Flying Lizards.     Made in the living room of a house using crappy equipment,     yet it's an iconic record.   But I guess the whole Punk movement and some of its branches were about "the streets" and homemade rawness.



Or you think about the great Motown bassist James Jamerson,    laying down his iconic,  once-in-a-lifetime grooves on a beat up old Fenderbass,  using dirty strings which he never changed.

It really is about CONCEPT,  isn't it,   attitude,  ingenuity  and enthusiasm.    Andy Warhol's mantra was that art was whatever you decide it is  (the legacy of Duchamp),   and he also said   "Art is whatever you can get away with."

Then there is that oft-quoted caveat to modern rock musicians:   SERGEANT PEPPER'S was recorded on four tracks.


Every paint-stroke takes you farther and farther away from your initial concept. And you have to be thankful for that. Wayne Thiebaud


Friend me on FACEBOOK!


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Moderator
MrKnobs
Posts: 60,966
Registered: ‎12-03-2001

Re: Gear Snobbery

Well, some really expensive gear IS actually massively better.  I'd place an Avalon 737 in that category.  Some expensive gear is crap (I'd place a Royer 121 ribbon mic in that category or a Meek VC1 channel strip), some really inexpensive gear is amazing (e.g. FMR Audio RMC compressor), and most really inexpensive gear is pretty marginal.   As always, your mileage may vary but that's my opinion on some stuff I own and use often.

For a normal person there's more pleasure in acquiring something than in having it.  The thrill of getting something new doesn't last very long.  That's actually pretty healthy in comparison to a hoarder who gets pleasure (or perhaps avoids anxiety) by keeping everything.  And sicker still is the gear snob who gets pleasure from the gear not from the buying or the having but through denigrating others by "one upping" them.

Ultimately, all gear, cheap or pricey, is just a tool and it's real value lies in what a skilled person can produce with it - but you know that.

Terry D.



Telling Stories releases 2nd CD, see our WEBSITE! Please check out my GROUPIE STORY and Tales from the Road.
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Moderator
blue2blue
Posts: 25,850
Registered: ‎07-19-2005

Re: Gear Snobbery

[ Edited ]

My reverse gear snobbery extends to my computer, as well.

While I once spent new car money on a computer (OK, Yugo money, anyhow; my second, back in 1988), while my current life pretty much revolves around my computer (I work for a living on it; I make music on it; I edit vids on it; I get virtually all my electronic entertainment and edification on it (or my tablet or phone).

So... is it some fire-breathing, overclocked, water-cooled rocket ship?

Hardly.

It's a refurbed Dell, single core, beater P4 (HT) that cost $343 before tax and shipping. (I added monitor big drives,  FW, memory, etc, of coruse.)  

It does what I need and it does it, overall, pretty darn well.*

 

*Flash issues notwithstanding. For the last year and change, various problems with Adobe's Flash have kept me hopping from browser to browser for Flash content. I don't know if it's especially bad on XP or what, but I have to say my contempt for Adobe just keeps solidifying.



day job | A Year of Songs | music and social stuff
| mutant pop on facebook | roots acoustic on facebook | ThisIsMyJam



The chorus seems a little weak... I think it needs more lasers.
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Super Contributor
Posts: 3,311
Registered: ‎07-27-2005

Re: Gear Snobbery

[ Edited ]

You can't claim gear is really retro-cool unless all the diodes are cat-whisker galena crystals.   :catvery-happy: (damn - what a lame set of emoticons!)

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Super Contributor
Posts: 17,712
Registered: ‎10-29-2003

Re: Gear Snobbery

[ Edited ]

LearJeff summed it up for me: I'm not a gear snob, I'm a sound snob. I'm ecstatic if I can find gear whose sound I really like yet it doesn't break the bank, and there's starting to be more and more of that the past 2 or 3 years. But if something just doesn't sound good, I'm not going to pretend it does either. And I'm pickier about sound than the average bear, so if that makes me a snob, so be it. :smileyvery-happy: I'm not doing it to look cool or show off some status symbol brand name, I'm doing it to please my own ears.


And the whole "great gear won't make bad music good" argument is so tired. I don't think anyone's ever said it would, and if anyone really thinks that, nothing can really help them. My feeling is, good music deserves to sound good, and bad sound has certainly kept a lot of good music from being as exciting or accessible as it otherwise could be.


So, I choose my gear very wisely and I don't settle on anything without having auditioned it for quite awhile first. But I know when something's lacking. I'd hate to be a kid who couldn't get the sounds they desired and was told it was because they lacked the engineering skills to get good sounds out of what they had (as a lot of people on forums tend to say). I spent the better part of the last decade constantly wrestling with cheap gear and trying to get something decent out of it. I'm proud of that and a lot of people thought I did a good job of it, but I didn't enjoy it. It didn't feel creative, it felt like I had to spend hours to get something usable that still wasn't really what I wanted sonically. It pissed me off that I'd been able to get better sounds as an 18 year old intern. But like a lot of people, I wasn't in any financial condition to get anything better, so I kept on with it. Plus, digital recording was still in its infancy and even the high end stuff mostly didn't sound good to me, so I didn't even know what I could have bought that would make me happy.


Nowadays, there's better stuff out there for relatively cheap, and I'm doing better money-wise, so a couple of years ago I upgraded my studio. Not a ton. I really didn't spend much money at all considering what a lot of people spend! But the difference in sound to me is night and day. All of a sudden, stuff just works, and I get the sounds I want without any problem at all. It's not because I became a vastly better musician and engineer 2 years ago. It's because of the gear. So yes, in that sense, I am a gear snob. Better gear has made music and recording fun for me again.

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Super Contributor
UstadKhanAli
Posts: 19,271
Registered: ‎08-25-2005

Re: Gear Snobbery


Lee Flier wrote:

LearJeff summed it up for me: I'm not a gear snob, I'm a sound snob. I'm ecstatic if I can find gear whose sound I really like yet it doesn't break the bank, and there's starting to be more and more of that the past 2 or 3 years. But if something just doesn't sound good, I'm not going to pretend it does either. And I'm pickier about sound than the average bear, so if that makes me a snob, so be it. :smileyvery-happy: I'm not doing it to look cool or show off some status symbol brand name, I'm doing it to please my own ears.


And the whole "great gear won't make bad music good" argument is so tired. I don't think anyone's ever said it would, and if anyone really thinks that, nothing can really help them. My feeling is, good music deserves to sound good, and bad sound has certainly kept a lot of good music from being as exciting or accessible as it otherwise could be.


So, I choose my gear very wisely and I don't settle on anything without having auditioned it for quite awhile first. But I know when something's lacking. I'd hate to be a kid who couldn't get the sounds they desired and was told it was because they lacked the engineering skills to get good sounds out of what they had (as a lot of people on forums tend to say). I spent the better part of the last decade constantly wrestling with cheap gear and trying to get something decent out of it. I'm proud of that and a lot of people thought I did a good job of it, but I didn't enjoy it. It didn't feel creative, it felt like I had to spend hours to get something usable that still wasn't really what I wanted sonically. It pissed me off that I'd been able to get better sounds as an 18 year old intern. But like a lot of people, I wasn't in any financial condition to get anything better, so I kept on with it. Plus, digital recording was still in its infancy and even the high end stuff mostly didn't sound good to me, so I didn't even know what I could have bought that would make me happy.


Nowadays, there's better stuff out there for relatively cheap, and I'm doing better money-wise, so a couple of years ago I upgraded my studio. Not a ton. I really didn't spend much money at all considering what a lot of people spend! But the difference in sound to me is night and day. All of a sudden, stuff just works, and I get the sounds I want without any problem at all. It's not because I became a vastly better musician and engineer 2 years ago. It's because of the gear. So yes, in that sense, I am a gear snob. Better gear has made music and recording fun for me again.


 

 

If any  of us could make great sounding music with nothing but cheap stuff, we would.

I'll take this opportunity to bold stuff from Lee's post.

"All of a sudden, stuff just works, and I get the sound I want without any problem at all."

EXACTLY.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Super Contributor
Posts: 17,712
Registered: ‎10-29-2003

Re: Gear Snobbery

[ Edited ]

UstadKhanAli wrote:
"All of a sudden, stuff just works, and I get the sound I want without any problem at all."

EXACTLY.  


 

Of course there's always the other usual answer: "Well, but you're experienced. You could give great gear to an inexperienced engineer and it won't make them great (again, nobody said it would). They have bigger issues than their gear and they would be better served to focus on those."

This may well be true, but if it is, how would you know? If all you have is really shitty gear, I don't know how you'd be able to zero in on which of your skills need improving. I learned on some of the best gear around at the time, and it sounded great, and every day I heard amazing musicians and amazing engineers making great sounds with that stuff. So if I wasn't happy with something I did, I knew it was my problem. There was no way at all I could have blamed the gear, and IMO this really worked to my benefit.


Now of course I'd never advocate that somebody waste their money on high dollar gear when they have a problem that may be easily solvable with what they have. Which is why forums like these are helpful. Someone can get on here and describe a problem they're having or a sound they're not happy with, and they might get a million great tips that don't involve buying more gear. Maybe their mic technique sucks or the room sucks, or they don't understand gain staging, and they don't realize what kind of problems that causes. I get that! I'm certainly not saying anyone should forget about improving their skills and just sit back and let the gear do all the work. :smileyvery-happy: I'm just saying, if you've really given something a go and you still find yourself fighting with it and not having fun, it may be time to save up for something better. And that's true whether you're a pro or a newbie.

 

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Super Contributor
Posts: 3,311
Registered: ‎07-27-2005

Re: Gear Snobbery

I have to agree with you Lee - - there is putting up a U47 and doing a take and getting it done, then there is putting up an SM58 or something, sliding it around for half an hour, then spending an hour EQing the take to make it right...    Unfortunately, I'm sort of in the middle right now - but my mic collection grows by one or two a year, and is slowly creeping upward in terms of quality.  I feel pretty lucky to have a great sounding console that allows each channel strip to be used as a separate preamp.

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Super Contributor
Posts: 17,712
Registered: ‎10-29-2003

Re: Gear Snobbery


philbo wrote:

I have to agree with you Lee - - there is putting up a U47 and doing a take and getting it done, then there is putting up an SM58 or something, sliding it around for half an hour, then spending an hour EQing the take to make it right...   

...and then, after spending all that time, it still won't be quite right, because there are so many things that mic just can't pick up (doesn't have the sensitivity), or distorts if it does, and you can't get rid of the distortion or pick up things the mic simply couldn't capture. Or you have a preamp that can't handle something like a hard hit snare drum... the list goes on. There are some things you can't correct no matter what you do - things that seem to be inherent in a lot of cheap gear. Add those things up across a lot of tracks and it can really be a problem. I suppose it's easier for people who work with samples and loops and virtual instruments, but if that's not your thing, it's tough to deal with bargain basement gear. I think this is just simple practicality and not snobbery, though some may disagree. :smileyvery-happy:

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Super Contributor
learjeff
Posts: 1,086
Registered: ‎07-25-2006

Re: Gear Snobbery

[ Edited ]
Lee Flier wrote:

This may well be true, but if it is, how would you know? If all you have is really shitty gear, I don't know how you'd be able to zero in on which of your skills need improving. I learned on some of the best gear around at the time, and it sounded great, and every day I heard amazing musicians and amazing engineers making great sounds with that stuff. So if I wasn't happy with something I did, I knew it was my problem. There was no way at all I could have blamed the gear, and IMO this really worked to my benefit.


That's why, back in 1982, I got rid of my cheap acoustic guitar and bought a Martin HD28, which I still have and play regularly. As it turns out, half of my problems were the cheap guitar, and half were my technique. I'm still working on that second half! Another thing that amuses me is on home recording forums, where someone is considering spending $500 or more on an audio interface, but their recordings show they have a crappy guitar with dead strings. But as Lee says, that's what forums are great for, to help point people in the most productive direction. After that it's up to them.

wonder if I'll ever tire of posting my list of importance, for making a good recording, something like this:

1 composition, arrangement, performance
2 instruments
3 engineering
4 mics, mic preamps, monitors
5 software
6 audio interface

Of course, if you're DIY, you can't pay to improve on #1 and 3. But there's no point in going whole hog on #6 if you're lacking in the areas above it. Note that I left room treatments out of this list, but mostly because it could fall just about anywhere from 2 to 5, depending. IMHO, it's the biggest variable, hardest to asses on a forum, and most time-consuming to get right in a lot of cases. (And in other cases, doing nothing seems to work great. I've been lucky to have a couple houses where acoustic instrument and vocal recordings sounded great -- electric guitar not so much! So I record loud stuff direct and live with amateur results, which is fine for me.)

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Super Contributor
UstadKhanAli
Posts: 19,271
Registered: ‎08-25-2005

Re: Gear Snobbery

[ Edited ]

While I wholeheartedly agree with the points Lee, Philbo, and Learjeff are making above, I just want to point out that sometimes, just sometimes, using sucky gear can at least lead to some creative and funny decisions.  

A verrry long time ago, when I was first starting out, I had a vocalist coming over.  I really wanted the recording to sound good, but all I had were $100 microphones and not much else, most of which were horrible dynamic mics that I had purchased at garage sales for cheap.  How would I ever get a decent sound?  I tried calling up people to ask if anyone had decent mics I could borrow.  But everyone was as poor as me and had nothing.  

I did have an EV 257A dynamic, with not much top end but a smooth mid and bottom end, and a really thin sounding SDC, an Audio-Technica 33R, with not much body to speak of, but some top end.  What to do?  I taped the two mics together so they would stay perfectly even, and recorded them to two tracks, blending them together.  Top end....low end.  Together at last.  Worked out surprisingly well, two crappy mics coming together as a much better whole.  :smileyvery-happy:  :smileyvery-happy:

I now return you to the sensible remarks of Lee, Philbo, and Learjeff.  :smileyvery-happy:

 

 

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Super Contributor
Posts: 1,052
Registered: ‎08-05-2002

Re: Gear Snobbery

I might be a gear junky but no attitude hear.

I still am amazed when I see some of the things people do with minimal setups. There's a lot to be said for good planning and some honest effort. 

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