Backstage With the Band

[StageMasters]

Stop me if I'm wrong SN but What I see here a lot are musicians complaining a lot about how hard it is to get well paid gigs and how bar owners are trying to screw up bands and pay them minimum or not at all if possible. My first reactions when I read these post is: Ok, they complain so they do not like the situation and want to change it then. I know for sure that no one will be able to change the bars and club owners into people willing to pay well the bands they hire and welcome them as important people worth the price they are paid. On the other way around any band can take the decision to try something different to grow as a band and get away from these bars that do not pay squad.

With my first band, I have had my shares of shit gigs with no money and bar owner wondering why I would ask some money to play in his bar. I had a gig once that was paid by the number of people who would show up and 4 people showed up. We got each the amount of 10 Francs which is 2.24$. I did not get away from that circuit by reading books about self improvement but by hanging out or learning from musicians who made it to a higher level and are now highly successful. I certainly did not make it as high as them but I have learned from them and keep doing so.

I understand it is more comfortable to think that all these advises I'm trying to share are not applying for you guys and I respect that but then quit complaining about how hard your scene is if you don't want to move on to a bigger scene. Don't misunderstand me SN, I don't talk about you especially but about all the people here that I read and that seem to feel so annoyed about their situation. I try to bring an insight to change their situation like I followed the insight of others. I never imagined I could face so much resistance for sharing tools, ideas or views to help change a situation that seems to bother people. I mean, I have nothing to gain here by sharing advices so if people prefer criticizing me for trying to help it's all good. I'll talk it for a while and then will simply stop because I won't waste too much time giving ideas to people who are not willing to change the situation they complain so much about

StageMasters

[SpaceNorman]

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StageMasters wrote:

Stop me if I'm wrong SN but What I see here a lot are musicians complaining a lot about how hard it is to get well paid gigs and how bar owners are trying to screw up bands and pay them minimum or not at all if possible. My first reactions when I read these post is: Ok, they complain so they do not like the situation and want to change it then. I know for sure that no one will be able to change the bars and club owners into people willing to pay well the bands they hire and welcome them as important people worth the price they are paid. On the other way around any band can take the decision to try something different to grow as a band and get away from these bars that do not pay squad.

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I don't disagree with your assessment - in the big scheme of things.  Yet while that's true in the big scheme of things - the fact remains that every band starts at the beginning (i.e., without a following, without a history of marketable successes, without an inventory of "goodwill" that can be leveraged to land better paying gigs, etc.)  I also agree that there IS a path (a method) to get from such a beginning to the better paying gigs virtually every aspires to play.   That said however - there are certain first steps that every band must take to start down that path. 

Where you and I disagree is this.  I feel that in cases such as the OP's - you fail to recognize that your dealing with a band that is making their first steps and are not tailoring your advise so that it's relevent to folks who are making those first steps.   Telling a band that has no following, that doesn't have a history of marketable successes, that doesn't have an inventory of "goodwill" and contacts who might be willing to cash in that "goodwill" - that they need to tailor their current marketing message to show their potential client how their following makes their clients money - makes no sense at all.   Your message is absolutely relevant to bands that have a bit of a following, that have a few marketable successes that they can point to.  However, for a band without those things - and who are taking the first steps to simply get a foot in a door, any door - it's simply not relevant (yet!). 

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StageMasters wrote:

 I mean, I have nothing to gain here by sharing advices ...

No disrespect intended - but I'm gonna have to call bullsh!t on this comment.   You've made it pretty clear that you're about to release a book on this very topic.  The links to your web points of presence make it pretty clear that you're working to establish yourself as a professional coach marketing your service to entertainers who are trying to make it to the next level.   To now claim that you have "nothing to gain" is simply disingenuous. 

[Potts]

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SpaceNorman wrote:

StageMasters wrote:

 I mean, I have nothing to gain here by sharing advices ...

No disrespect intended - but I'm gonna have to call bullsh!t on this comment.   You've made it pretty clear that you're about to release a book on this very topic.  The links to your web points of presence make it pretty clear that you're working to establish yourself as a professional coach marketing your service to entertainers who are trying to make it to the next level.   To now claim that you have "nothing to gain" is simply disingenuous. 

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I'm just patiently waiting for it to start.

[SpaceNorman]

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Potts wrote:

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SpaceNorman wrote:

StageMasters wrote:

 I mean, I have nothing to gain here by sharing advices ...

No disrespect intended - but I'm gonna have to call bullsh!t on this comment.   You've made it pretty clear that you're about to release a book on this very topic.  The links to your web points of presence make it pretty clear that you're working to establish yourself as a professional coach marketing your service to entertainers who are trying to make it to the next level.   To now claim that you have "nothing to gain" is simply disingenuous. 

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I'm just patiently waiting for it to start.

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The $2.00 question is ... do you feel my assessment is off base?

[modulusman]

Actually I think the OPs band has been around for awhile. They are not exactly new. What they need is a better PA IMO. lol

[Potts]

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modulusman wrote:

 What they need is a better PA IMO. lol

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I think what you meant to say is that they need more subs.  lol  

[Potts]

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SpaceNorman wrote:

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Potts wrote:

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SpaceNorman wrote:

StageMasters wrote:

 I mean, I have nothing to gain here by sharing advices ...

No disrespect intended - but I'm gonna have to call bullsh!t on this comment.   You've made it pretty clear that you're about to release a book on this very topic.  The links to your web points of presence make it pretty clear that you're working to establish yourself as a professional coach marketing your service to entertainers who are trying to make it to the next level.   To now claim that you have "nothing to gain" is simply disingenuous. 

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I'm just patiently waiting for it to start.

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The $2.00 question is ... do you feel my assessment is off base?

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What do you think?  

[jeff42]

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modulusman wrote:

Actually I think the OPs band has been around for awhile. They are not exactly new. What they need is a better PA IMO. lol

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Yes I believe they have been around for awhile gigging weekly and IMO sound really good. I doubt they are scraping by playing dive bars for door pay. IMO they are at a point where they want to jump up to bigger better gigs (corp events, festivals- everything else but bars)

[Blackbird 13]

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SpaceNorman wrote:

It's tough to provide much concrete advise to the OP since he didn't give us alot of information about where his band is today (the kind of gigs they're currently playing, what sort of consistent draw they currently have, etc.)   However, the fact that he explained he's preparing to send out a mailing to "400+ venues and potential clients ... from bars and clubs to sports teams to theme parks, to agents and more, trying to make them aware of who we are and what we do" speaks volumes.   This type of shotgun marketing blitz is typically used by bands who are relatively new - and simply trying to get themselves out into the public eye.  Said another way - it's an "entry level" strategy.  It's one that's used because they likely don't have other options.

The OP's shotgun marketing blitz makes it pretty clear that he's hoping to jump start his band by seeking out "commodity" gigs (i.e., like the $300-$400 a night gigs at local corner bars - that can be had by bands that don't have a proven following that they can sell (yet!)).   If the OP had a proven following that was large enough and consistent enough to use as a meaningful selling point - he wouldn't be sending out mass mailings - he'd be following a marketing strategy that identified specific venues and tailoring his message to get those gigs.

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Again,.. I guess I assumed too much. Clicking my name should take you to links to my band's material... or alternatively, you can look a few threads down, where I ask for critiques of that material. I tend to assume that you guys on HC are familiar with me, as I've asked for help here along most steps of the way in the past three years.. but my apologies for not providing any backstory.

I have an established cover band, playing 3-6 nights a week for most of the past three years. I've likely played more shows in each of the past few years that the large majority of the posters on this board. My band has shared the bill (and in some cases, the stage), with the 10,000 Maniacs, Colt Ford, the Gin Blossoms, and Kip Moore, and we've supported ourselves on the income from the band for all three years.

Currently, we're playing about 80-90 percent of our gigs in bars and clubs. We do have some private events, weddings, an art show, and a few festivals here and there.. and I'm looking to add more of those. As for draw, it varies wildly. Our name is out there enough that people know it.. but I don't know that the majority of them know what it is we do. We have a bit of a following, but they come out very scattered. One night, we could see ten people that we know, the next we could see a hundred. But I never know which night will be which.

We also live in an area where we have around 200 live music venues, many of whom don't pay attention to anything that isn't going on right in their specific corner of the area. The place in which I live is kind of a "small town metropolis". I think we're like the 20th major market for radio and tv..but no major sports teams, and we aren't an LA, New York, Atlanta, or the like. It's a strange feel for sure.

My goal is to work us into new rooms (bars and clubs).. but MOSTLY to get us into doing some different types of gigs. I've got a business that's working and going strong at a certain level.. but I'm trying to take steps to move it up another level. Is your suggestion that I tailor a specific email for each of the 400+ potential clients on my list? I'm not against that.. but it would have to be something to provide significant ROI on my time to do so as opposed to a slightly edited mass-mailing.

Just because you have something that's somewhat successful doesn't mean that you don't need to look for ways to improve it.

modulusman wrote:

Actually I think the OPs band has been around for awhile. They are not exactly new. What they need is a better PA IMO. lol

First off.. I agree that it would be great to have some nicer subs. However, I don't think it makes as near of as big of a difference as you think, and I think your dislike of my gear is simply because of the name on the faceplate. I also know for a fact that I earned the money and bought and paid for these subs with profits from my music.

Besides, when we're doing bigger events, we're obviously hiring sound out, as our PA in general isn't large enough to cover a big outdoor festival. 

[StageMasters]

I have to agree with you on the first part of your post. What I gave as an advice is probably irrelevant for a band that is just starting but in his original post, there was no mention what so ever that the band was just starting. I gave a general advise that can be taken into account or not if it's not relevant for the moment. No need to make a fuzz out of it. When I post something, I expect people to take what they need from it and to leave the rest. Blackbird did not make a fuzz about my advice and responded in a normal way.

I just sense that some of you guys like Potts may be a bit bored and are in need for some action like online fights or so.

I'm sorry to disappoint you Potts but you won't have this pleasure

As for your second statement, I'll have to disagree with you. I'm indeed about to release a book which most of you clearly made me understand were not interesting in. If my goal here was having the 7 or 8 people here reading my posts to buy my book, I would be starving with such a strategy. I came here to share and I don't understand why I have to justify myself for that.

It seems to be clearly an entertainment for some of you to try to break all my pots down.

You treat me like if I was your enemy or something like that.

I'll make it simple for everyone. I'm here to share things for free ( No sales). I'm not asking any of you to buy anything from me (here would be the last place for me to come to find potential buyers) and again, if my goal was to have you guys buying my book, I would be out of here a long time ago seeing the way you receive tips and advises LOL

So can we start again on a fresh basis? Forget that I have a book that is about to come out. From now on I have no book anymore OK?

If we can get on that way, we may even have fun exchanging different points of views

StageMasters

[Blackbird 13]

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StageMasters wrote:

I have to agree with you on the first part of your post. What I gave as an advice is probably irrelevant for a band that is just starting but in his original post, there was no mention what so ever that the band was just starting. I gave a general advise that can be taken into account or not if it's not relevant for the moment. No need to make a fuzz out of it. When I post something, I expect people to take what they need from it and to leave the rest. Blackbird did not make a fuzz about my advice and responded in a normal way.

I just sense that some of you guys like Potts may be a bit bored and are in need for some action like online fights or so.

I'm sorry to disappoint you Potts but you won't have this pleasure

As for your second statement, I'll have to disagree with you. I'm indeed about to release a book which most of you clearly made me understand were not interesting in. If my goal here was having the 7 or 8 people here reading my posts to buy my book, I would be starving with such a strategy. I came here to share and I don't understand why I have to justify myself for that.

It seems to be clearly an entertainment for some of you to try to break all my pots down.

You treat me like if I was your enemy or something like that.

I'll make it simple for everyone. I'm here to share things for free ( No sales). I'm not asking any of you to buy anything from me (here would be the last place for me to come to find potential buyers) and again, if my goal was to have you guys buying my book, I would be out of here a long time ago seeing the way you receive tips and advises LOL

So can we start again on a fresh basis? Forget that I have a book that is about to come out. From now on I have no book anymore OK?

If we can get on that way, we may even have fun exchanging different points of views

StageMasters

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I can't speak for anyone else.. but here's the thing. I have been successful in my music career WITHOUT the HC forums. I've sung in front of crowds of 10,000 plus.. I've opened up for national artists.. I've made a lot of money.. and I did all that without the help of a single person on this board. I come here because I want another perspective, a different take on things that I may have not seen BECAUSE I'm basing my strategies solely on MY successes, and not on the successes of others... and that will hopefully make me more successful for it!

I don't want to speak for them, but I would say the same is true for jeff, Potts, SpaceNorman, kmart, mstreck, even modulusman, not to mention folks here like Grant, guido, JPaul... and none of us take particulaly kindly to someone coming in here acting so far "above" us. I want to just grab you and shake you... and slowly say "WE.DO.THIS.TOO!"

When I have a conversation with one of those guys.. I know I'm speaking to someone who is, basically, a peer and an equal. You often come off speaking to us the way a teacher would speak to an elementary school class, and your advice is often contrary to what many of us have seen work "in the field".

We welcome your opinions.. so long as you realize that this is exactly what they are!

[StageMasters]

Thanks Blackbird for the background

I think it is really good if you want to step up one level.

When I send emails to get gigs I separate my emails in 3 categories:

- Local medias

- Venues

- People I want to invite to my gigs like (agents, bookers and any kind of people who can help me in my career)

The content of my email for the 3 categories will be practically the same except for the header which is supposed to catch their attention. Although the core of my email will be the same for each category I will add a couple of lines with the specific potential items that may interest my the category. I try to keep it simple and not too long.

Cheers,

StageMasters 

[StageMasters]

Indeed Blackbird, I share my opinion as such. I don't see myself above anyone and I am not into competition either. I am into cooperation and this is why I share my views. The difference between you and me is that I base my strategy not only on my experience but on the experience of others. Of course I teach people as a coach and maybe my way to write reflects that. In such case I apologize as it is not my intention anytime. As musicians we are all equal in front of the possibilities and only our choices determine how our career will turn out to be. I started from the bottom like everyone else and if started coaching, it is because I wanted to help some people to see things from a different perspective. That implies telling what I know worked for me or for others. I respect each and everyone of you and only want to bring a different view as it is what creates a discussion. I don't think it is bad if my advices go against what you may have tried and work for you. Maybe I want to test your own strategy if you share it with me to see if it works even better for me  than my actual one.

I'm really open minded and welcoming any different insights than mine. Do not take my post as an absolute and remember that it is only my experience or the one of people I met on the road and only my personal opinion. I don't want to have to state in each of my post that it is only my personal opinion because I assume it goes without saying but maybe I was wrong here...

No one has an absolute truth in any area. In my area that is stage performance, I'm discovering new things almost every week. And that is what drives me when I wake up in the morning.

So I make it as clear as possible, I'm not above anyone, not even the beginners because I teach some and they teach me back. I'm not the most experienced musician ever, I am a musician with his experience and I admit I like to challenge ideas but it is not a reason to take it badly. If you guys are good sport, just challenge my ideas, not who I am, or my credits or these bulls.. First because it is not interesting for anyone besides Potts and second because challenging ideas is (IN MY OPINION and ONLY MINE) the best way to learn new things and still take only what we need from it.

Maybe my English is not correct enough as well and can lead you to misinterpretation as it is not my first language. For this as well I apologize.

StageMasters

[modulusman]

 If you want to get higher paying gigs you may need to upgrade your whole PA not just the subs. You are in competetion with other bands for that work so you need to sound better than them IMO. In the last 10 years I have bought about 40K in musical equipment that was paid for with band income.

[Blackbird 13]

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modulusman wrote:

 If you want to get higher paying gigs you may need to upgrade your whole PA not just the subs. You are in competetion with other bands for that work so you need to sound better than them IMO. In the last 10 years I have bought about 40K in musical equipment that was paid for with band income.

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In what's kind of an interesting twist.. I've noticed that many of the bands that are working and doing higher dollar functions and events have LESS of a PA than us. Some of them even have speakers on sticks... playing PHYSICALLY larger halls and rooms than us with the the S115Vs and B1800Xs.

Not really sure what the deal with that is..

[SpaceNorman]

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Blackbird 13 wrote:

My goal is to work us into new rooms (bars and clubs).. but MOSTLY to get us into doing some different types of gigs. I've got a business that's working and going strong at a certain level.. but I'm trying to take steps to move it up another level. Is your suggestion that I tailor a specific email for each of the 400+ potential clients on my list? I'm not against that.. but it would have to be something to provide significant ROI on my time to do so as opposed to a slightly edited mass-mailing.

My bad for not being more in touch with your background - for whatever reason, your band wasn't on my radar in the way that some others are (i.e., Guido's, Grant's, Jeff's, etc.)   Now that I'm a little clearer on where you're at ... my take is this.

I wouldn't tailor a specific email for each of the 400+ potential clients on your list - however, I would try to make an attempt to categorize your list of potential clients into 3-4 broad categories, and tailor your message for those broad categories.   Your original note mentioned "from bars and clubs to sports teams to theme parks, to agents and more".  Were it me - I'd tailor one message for bars and clubs (and now knowing your background - spinning it much in the manner that StageMaster has suggested).  

I'd tailor another message for the theme parks and municipal festival coordinators on your list - this one calling out your experience and pointing out your opening act credits.  Experience like that can really help sell to folks who are booking "special event" bands for corporate and/or local public events.   Typically these are folks who got some experience in booking local live entertainment - for relatively large crowds yet on a budget.   I see the objective here as convincing them that you're got experience playing to large crowds - and not just the guys playing down at Slippery's once every couple of months.

Agents are a category in their own right.  In my experience, agents are looking for quality (both in terms of musicianship as well as in terms of your show).  They're much less concerned with "following" - they're typically selling the "A" rooms that are already destination venues with a regular clientele.   They can sell a high quality act without a big following - but will be eaten alive by their "A" room clients if they stick a sh!tty band who's managed to amass a "big fish in a tiny pond" following.   Agents are looking for bands that are the real deal and know it when they see it.

Your reference to "sports teams" has me wondering what you mean.  Are you talking about pro/semi-pro teams - or are you talking about youth sports teams?  If you're talking pro/semi-pro teams - I'd lump them in with the theme park / municipal festival coordinator types.   However it you're talking youth sports teams ....  One of my projects has worked with numerous youth sports teams who've thrown a banquet hall "party" as a fundraiser (i.e., dinner / open bar / dancing - door prizes, silent auction, etc.) for $xx.xx a couple sort of events.   We approach selling these like we're selling a wedding.  You're selling to a client that typically has ZERO experience with live entertainment ... so we're selling a service (professional live entertainment that you may have seen at these premier clubs in your area - along with DJ services for walk-in music, music during dinnner, music during breaks as well as experienced "master of ceremony" service for handling announcements and keeping your event on track throughout the evening....). 

That's how I'd approach it ... YMMV.

Good luck!

[Blackbird 13]

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SpaceNorman wrote:

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Blackbird 13 wrote:

My goal is to work us into new rooms (bars and clubs).. but MOSTLY to get us into doing some different types of gigs. I've got a business that's working and going strong at a certain level.. but I'm trying to take steps to move it up another level. Is your suggestion that I tailor a specific email for each of the 400+ potential clients on my list? I'm not against that.. but it would have to be something to provide significant ROI on my time to do so as opposed to a slightly edited mass-mailing.

My bad for not being more in touch with your background - for whatever reason, your band wasn't on my radar in the way that some others are (i.e., Guido's, Grant's, Jeff's, etc.)   Now that I'm a little clearer on where you're at ... my take is this.

I wouldn't tailor a specific email for each of the 400+ potential clients on your list - however, I would try to make an attempt to categorize your list of potential clients into 3-4 broad categories, and tailor your message for those broad categories.   Your original note mentioned "from bars and clubs to sports teams to theme parks, to agents and more".  Were it me - I'd tailor one message for bars and clubs (and now knowing your background - spinning it much in the manner that StageMaster has suggested).  

I'd tailor another message for the theme parks and municipal festival coordinators on your list - this one calling out your experience and pointing out your opening act credits.  Experience like that can really help sell to folks who are booking "special event" bands for corporate and/or local public events.   Typically these are folks who got some experience in booking local live entertainment - for relatively large crowds yet on a budget.   I see the objective here as convincing them that you're got experience playing to large crowds - and not just the guys playing down at Slippery's once every couple of months.

Agents are a category in their own right.  In my experience, agents are looking for quality (both in terms of musicianship as well as in terms of your show).  They're much less concerned with "following" - they're typically selling the "A" rooms that are already destination venues with a regular clientele.   They can sell a high quality act without a big following - but will be eaten alive by their "A" room clients if they stick a sh!tty band who's managed to amass a "big fish in a tiny pond" following.   Agents are looking for bands that are the real deal and know it when they see it.

Your reference to "sports teams" has me wondering what you mean.  Are you talking about pro/semi-pro teams - or are you talking about youth sports teams?  If you're talking pro/semi-pro teams - I'd lump them in with the theme park / municipal festival coordinator types.   However it you're talking youth sports teams ....  One of my projects has worked with numerous youth sports teams who've thrown a banquet hall "party" as a fundraiser (i.e., dinner / open bar / dancing - door prizes, silent auction, etc.) for $xx.xx a couple sort of events.   We approach selling these like we're selling a wedding.  You're selling to a client that typically has ZERO experience with live entertainment ... so we're selling a service (professional live entertainment that you may have seen at these premier clubs in your area - along with DJ services for walk-in music, music during dinnner, music during breaks as well as experienced "master of ceremony" service for handling announcements and keeping your event on track throughout the evening....). 

That's how I'd approach it ... YMMV.

Good luck!

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Dude.. thank you! Exactly the kind of thing I need. I actually had four different emails typed up, but the differences were very subtle (order of genres... pushing the opening act thing I little more). 

You've also pointed out that I need to focus a bit more on what someone who has no experience booking a band would actually be getting.

Props and kudos!

[StageMasters]

I have a question about the "Sport team". What kind of event is it? I do not think it exists in my country or I simply never got in touch with it.

And what is the difference between pro/semi-pro teams events and youth sports teams events?

Do they hire bands for specific events or just for regular parties?

StageMasters

[Blackbird 13]

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StageMasters wrote:

I have a question about the "Sport team". What kind of event is it? I do not think it exists in my country or I simply never got in touch with it.

And what is the difference between pro/semi-pro teams events and youth sports teams events?

Do they hire bands for specific events or just for regular parties?

StageMasters

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Originally, I meant "sports teams" as in the teams who play games you'd see on ESPN or television. Teams like that often hold fan events where live entertainment would be a plus, as well as private events (player and staff parties, for instance) where a live band could be a good fit. Usually, those major league teams also have "feeder teams"... minor league teams to pull from... and many of those teams do events as well. I remember being hired for one gig to literally play 30 second clips of songs between changeups at a baseball game.

SpaceNorman mentioned another avenue altogether with the youth sporting teams.. but that also might be something I need to look into.

[SpaceNorman]

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Blackbird 13 wrote:

Dude.. thank you! Exactly the kind of thing I need. I actually had four different emails typed up, but the differences were very subtle (order of genres... pushing the opening act thing I little more). 

You've also pointed out that I need to focus a bit more on what someone who has no experience booking a band would actually be getting.

Props and kudos!

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One comment since you mention genres ....

The only time I really make a point about genres is when I'm trying to sell to a true "private event" client(weddings, sports team fundraisers, etc.).   In most of those instances - we're simply trying to assure them that with our variety - we've got something for everybody. 

Everybody else - i.e., bar/club owners, professional event planners (i.e., your theme parks, municipal festival, corporate types) and/or agents - are going to scan the song list that's no doubt part of your promo package and/or web presence and instantly make a decision as to whether or not your playlist is the right fit for their venue or event.  No amount of spin is going change their minds. 

When it comes to playlist - you are what you is.   If you've got a playlist that is predominantly made of "genre A" tunes ... clients who are looking for "genre B" material will have already crossed you off their list as a potential fit for the gig.   I'm of the opinion that that in itself is a blessing.   There's few things worse than schlogging your way thru a gig with a playlist that's way off the mark - the crowd ain't happy and it's certainly no fun for the band.  I never try to spin the setlist as a selling point except to those clients for whom variety is likely to be key (and those are the true "private event" clients). 

Again, that's just me take .... YMMV.