Backstage With the Band

[jeff42]

So a manager of a bar called me a few minutes ago and wants to book us for next week. LOL

After I explained we book out 4-6 months in advance and she asked me how much we charge She then asked 2 red flag questions

" What about if we have a bad night?"

and

"How many people will you bring?"

uggh... I explained that there will probably be people there when we play a show and we will promote on our end, just like you will on yours- but I can never guarentee a single person will walk through the door. The people that are there we will entertain the hell out of but we don't make guarentees. 

The conversation ended nicely and she said that's a good way of looking at it. She's call me back for summer dates when they r ready. 

I will have to do digging on this place. Not really sure we even want to play there. 

[Kramerguy]

At this point, I want to play any place that offers a flat-rate in our range.  I don't even care about "bad nights" anymore (I DO care, but that's promotions, not bookings).. I'm sorely missing the extra income we got when solidly booked vs. the lack of bookings we have for 2013

[StageMasters]

I understand it sounds like Red flag questions for you but most of the serious club owners only want to make sure they will make money out of a concert. If no one comes in, they lose money as they still have to pay you. You don't want to play for free and they don't want to open their bar to lose money either.

The only way for you to insure good gigs well paid is to create a very strong fan base, only then you will be able to reassure club owners and get better paid gigs.

Good luck.

StageMasters

[Kramerguy]

SM, I wholly disagree.  The times have changed.  The "Groupie" and fanbases are endangered species, traveling at the speed of light towards extinction.  Many regions in the states, like mine, have a severely dwindling scene.. many things come into play.. the availability of streaming music online for free, drunk driving laws tighter and tighter with increasingly stiffer penalties, and other things.  

We're all trying to reinvent the wheel, to some degree, to cope with this, but many "local" cover bands are going the way of the dinosaur.  There will always be SOME market for bands like ours locally, but it has become very small and not significant enough to help a band rise above.  Originals are at least a slightly different story, but oftentimes just as depressing.

What many bands here have done (mine included) is to do LESS gigs, MORE promotion, and pray more people come out becuase we/you are now harder to see.

[Nobody Told Me]

I wonder if this bar owners' beer distributor is willing to discount the product based on crowd size? Probably not.

We've all heard "how many people will you bring", but I agree - the first question would be a huge red flag for me. I've never been asked that question quite that way.

[StageMasters]

I understand you point of view Kramer, I always have the tendency to assume that even local band have the ambition to make it in this business and I talk from that side point of view of course.

In my experience, fan are not an endangered species. They are actually easy to get for a cover band but paradoxically not easy to keep. On the other way around, for originals it is hard to find fans but when you can turn people into fans, they will stay faithful as you are accessible as a person and generous of your time with them whether online or at gigs.

It is possible to create a large fan base within one year if you put the work and energy into it. The question is more to know if people are motivated enough to put that many efforts into building a fan base.

More promotion is always good as long as one knows how to promote effectively. Playing less can be reversed as soon as the promotion and fan base grows the right way.

I personally experienced it with 2 bands. Mostly with one where the fan base was huge and then lost due to a lack of good work into it...

StageMasters

[StageMasters]

To be honest, I used to think like you guys and 20 years ago, I was taking it as a red flag as well as I was not able to bring anyone but a couple of friends to any gig. After growing in that business and playing for bigger bands and artists my perspective and vision of the music business changed and I got to see the whole thing differently! Now, if I play in a big venue, I know it is only because that the person I will play with have a strong fan base and can bring in a serious crowd.

StageMasters

[Potts]

SM..although I think your advice is insightful, I don't believe that you have to take every single post and make it into a lesson. Often times you are coming across terribly vain.

Many of us are successful at what we do and would occasionally prefer tidbits of advice instead of lessons from someone that I'm assuming isn't even in the same country as many of us.

Quite frankly, I've been steering away from your posts because they're so over the top. Take a breath man..you've only been here a couple of weeks. Feel this place out, learn the people, the bands, who's successful and who many of the contributors are before dolling out words of wisdom.

[StratGuy22]

In the big scheme of things the band is an expense. If the venue had a slow night the payment for the band is ultimately a deduction. It's much better when there is a big draw.

If a venue is bringing in live music, it should work on booking great bands, not focusing on the draw of each band, but focus on being a great venue to hear great music

That way no matter what weekend it is you can go to club XYZ and even if you haven't hear of the band, you know the place only books great bands.

[Nobody Told Me]

---

StageMasters wrote:

To be honest, I used to think like you guys and 20 years ago, I was taking it as a red flag as well as I was not able to bring anyone but a couple of friends to any gig. After growing in that business and playing for bigger bands and artists my perspective and vision of the music business changed and I got to see the whole thing differently! Now, if I play in a big venue, I know it is only because that the person I will play with have a strong fan base and can bring in a serious crowd.

StageMasters

---

That's great Stagemasters. Congrats on your success!  But many of us are NOT playing big venues filled with fans won over by our passion for performance. Some of us are playing dive bars on the weekends, hoping that when we get home (12 hours after departing for the gig) we made at least a few bucks more than we spent.

Sure, excitement is contagious, and the audience can feel that, and energy flows both directions...  I get that part of it. But some of your statements, while obviously well-intentioned, have very little relevancy to my situation.

That drunk guy calling for 'Freebird" doesn't give a rat's ass about how passionate I am about performing. YMMV

[FitchFY]

SM..although I think your advice is insightful, I don't believe that you have to take every single post and make it into a lesson.......

......you've only been here a couple of weeks. Feel this place out, learn the people, the bands, who's successful and who many of the contributors are before dolling out words of wisdom.

My thoughts exactly. You're going to come across as a pretentious know-it-all, when you're the new kid on the block here. The HC Forums are a web community -- why don't you pull it back a bit and chime in with some opinions and thoughts and not try to sound like you're The New Savior of Live Performance.

Everyone here has advice and opinion in some capacity, and having people listen to that is all in the delivery. I like your posts, but how `bout ya level out with us instead?

[jeff42]

---

StageMasters wrote:

I understand it sounds like Red flag questions for you but most of the serious club owners only want to make sure they will make money out of a concert. If no one comes in, they lose money as they still have to pay you. You don't want to play for free and they don't want to open their bar to lose money either.

The only way for you to insure good gigs well paid is to create a very strong fan base, only then you will be able to reassure club owners and get better paid gigs.

Good luck.

StageMasters

---

The thing is at some bars/clubs in my little part of PA if the band doesn't bring in what a bar considers a "good draw" they will try not to pay you. Not all of them operate like this but some do and I avoid places like this like the plague.

We have had discussions like this on the board before- its part of what its there for. Sometimes to discuss, sometimes to ask for advice, sometimes to vent and sometimes just to share experience.. Many forumites (including me) have told stories about how we got shafted at the end of a night. I try my best anymore to stop it before it starts.

Those 2 questions posed IMO are big red flags and tell me this place for whatever reason does NOT have a built in crowd. The people that will be there will ONLY be there because of my band not cuz its a great place for live music.  

Personally I would rather play to entertain the people that are already there, not worry about getting all my fam and friends together to support us. I also don't have to worry about getting myself ready for inevitable end of the night fight about only 50 people showing up and they don't have the $$$ to cover the band. 

As far as reassuring a club about a crowd. How can you 100% guarantee that ANYONE is going to walk through the door? IMO where I am and where I play you can't. Bad nights happen to all of us. Even the more successful people on here have bad nights... Many who post on here 99.9% of the time pull 10X the amout of people we do on our best night... and they STILL have bad nights. If a bar hires you to provide a service and you do that should be it. In a perfect world thats how it would be... HA! 

BTW I posted this as a point of discussion. (not doing much work at my job today. LOL)

[Potts]

---

StageMasters wrote:

The only way for you to insure good gigs well paid is to create a very strong fan base, only then you will be able to reassure club owners and get better paid gigs. 

---

Not true..I've made a complete full-time career by playing places and events that only have built-in crowds.  Considering most of us play locally, I think going this route is the smarter business practice than attempting to build a huge fan base that you have to rely on. Don't get me wrong, I have a decent fan base but I'm OK if nobody shows up.

[Nobody Told Me]

I had a situation recently where a restaurant owner decided to start having Live Music (!) on Saturday nights after the dinner crowd had tapered off, as a means to increase his bottom line. It never worked out, because he expected me to shoulder ALL of the risk.

Here we have a venue with NO regular crowd, NO reputation as a happening night spot (hence NO pretty girls), and NO experience dealing with bands. He wanted me to play for an unspecified % of the door, and maybe a bonus "if you do well". Talk about Red Flags!  I ran as far and as fast from that deal as possible.

[chemikool]

"What about if we have a bad night?"

----My responses:  

1)  Who makes this call...you?  Are you going to open up your books to me so that I can judge that myself?  If you'd like, we can work out a percentage of sales arrangement instead of a flat fee.

2)  What if you have a great night?  Seems like if you want us to take less if you make less, then we should get more if you make more - also - see number 1)  

3)  Skip it - don't even answer it - the manager is fishing to see how cheaply they can get you, or get out from under you if the night tanks.    Or...see 4)

4)  Our contract stipulates that you are purchasing our services.  Payment IN FULL for services rendered will be expected according to the terms of the contract.  I'll email/fax you a copy - what is your fax/email addy?

"How many people will you bring?"

----My responses:

1)  All of the venues that have my act perform all have drink and food specials to entice my crowd to come.  Why should my "crowd" come here - are you offering any discounts or specials?  Lets remember - who called who here...and with only a week's notice you aren't giving much to work with here.

2)  Including myself?  One - My car will be filled to the rim with gear so I can't bring anyone with me.  ***I know this isn't the question she MEANT to ask...but that is her fault not mine.***  Kinda cheeky, but so is the question to begin with...Assuming she means how many people can "the band" bring my response would be similar to 1) - however I might play the game, calling her bluff and say 20 people; simply to see what she says.  Any variation of "that's not enough" is all the red flag I need.

Sorta related to the OP:

I'm relatively hardline/assholish about booking though.  I've lost venues over the years because I don't put up with BS.  I've got a job (2 actually) and I don't have the time or inclination to put up with crap anymore.  I have a venue I've been playign for years that was just taken over by new management.  First thing they said was every solo/duo/group had to "re-audition" and they would use the January numbers for the February dates. 

I called up the owner and said "hey man, I'm already booked there twice in Feb, are you taking those off the calendar?" Owner said "maybe" --- I said when will you know? --- Owner said "end of Jan" --- I said I'm booked there the second weekend in Feb --- He said "maybe not" --- So I booked that night somewhere else; I don't live in maybe land.

[StageMasters]

I don't make it into lessons, I make it into advises, or at least that is my intention, and you do what you want with them! If you feel good with your career and satisfied, please stop reading them. I write for the ones who are interested in progressing with their career. I have learned from more experienced artists than me and better musicians than me. Of course I was eager to learn as I was not satisfied with my career but if you are exactly where you wanted to be, then respect man because it's not everybody's case.
Besides, I don't think that sharing knowledge is vain. Many people pay to get knowledge including me. I'm sorry if I give you a wrong feeling about my intentions but I write and comment based on my personal experience as well as based on the experience of the people I have met on the road. Is it that bad?
Should I feel guilty to have some experience and share what I have learned? So what is a forum about then? Some other people on this forum give very valuable info and I don't see them as vain. On the contrary, I love different insights and way to see things. It opens discussion. Maybe my way to write is too passionate and this is what you interpret as vain. But I'm very passionate for my job and feel blessed for the chance I have had to receive from so many others. I hope this explanation gives you a better understanding about the way I write and no hard feelings from my side. No one is forced to read my posts. It is really out of a will to share and engage discussion that I write any post.

I understand that many of you play bars and it is a hard circuit. What I wish for you all (if it is your goal) is to make it to a higher level. What I write is from that perspective and I don't wish anyone to take my posts personally. It is really to be taken by who feels concerned by them and want to use them.

As for the comment about me being the new kid on the block, it at least had the effect to make me smile  I may be new here but I come with good intentions and some knowledge. I am fine with people allergic to knowledge and like to remain with their certitudes  I am personally constantly learning from others everyday and am ready to share what I learn everyday with who wants 

[Kramerguy]

Most of us have read this already, but it's a good read SM.. if you haven't yet.

Full-time saxophonist, Dave Goldberg, wrote an honest letter to venue owners addressing their disregard and exploitation of the working musicians.  

______________________________________________________________________________

As Ive been looking for gigs lately, I’ve never seen so many free and low paying gigs. Well the economy is bad, so I can understand that a little bit. However, it is no longer good enough for the musician to be willing to perform for little compensation. Now we are expected to also be the venue promoter? The expectations are that the band will not only provide great music, but also bring lots of people to their venue. It is now the band’sresponsibility to make this happen, not the club owner.

Just the other day I was told by someone who owned a wine bar that they really liked our music and would love for us to play at their place. She then told me the gig paid $75 for a trio. Now $75 used to be bad money per person, let alone $75 for the whole band. It had to be a joke, right? No, she was serious. But it didn’t end there. She then informed us we had to bring 25 people minimum. Didn’t even offer us extra money if we brought 25 people. I would have laughed other than it’s not the first time I’ve gotten this proposal from club owners. But are there musicians really doing this? Yes. They are so desperate to play, they will do anything. But let’s think about this for a second and turn this around a little bit.

What if I told the wine bar owner that I have a great band and we are going to play at my house. I need someone to provide and pour wine while we play. I can’t pay much, just $75, and you must bring at least 25 people who are willing to pay a $10 cover charge at the door. Now wouldn’t they look at you like you are crazy?

“Why would I do that?” they would ask. Well because it’s great exposure for you and your wine bar. The people there would see how well you pour wine and see how good your wine is. Then they would come out to your wine bar sometime.  ”But I brought all the people myself, I already know them”, they would say. Well maybe you could make up some professional looking flyers, pass them out, and get people you don’t know to come on out. ”But you are only paying me $75. How can I afford to make up flyers?”

You see how absurd this sounds, but musicians do this all the time. If they didn’t, then the club owners wouldn’t even think of asking us to do it. So this sounds like a great deal for the club owners, doesn’t it?  They get a band and customers for that night, and have to pay very little if anything. But what they don’trealize is that this is NOT in their best interest.

 IF YOU WANT GREAT FOOD, YOU HIRE A GREAT CHEF…IT NEEDS TO BE THE SAME WITH THE BAND. YOU HIRE A GREAT BAND AND SHOULD EXPECT GREAT MUSIC.

Running a restaurant, a club, a bar, is really hard. There is a lot at stake for the owner. You are trying to get loyal customers that will return because you are offering them something special. If you want great food, you hire a great chef. If you want great décor,you hire a great interior decorator. You expect these professionals to do their best at what you are hiring them to do. It needs to be the same with the band. You hire a great band and should expect great music. That should be the end of your expectations for the musicians. The music is another product for the venue to offer, no different from food or beverages.

When a venue opens it’s doors, it has to market itself. The club owner can’t expect people to just walk in the door. This has to be handled in a professional way. Do you really want to leave something so important up to a musician? This is where the club owner needs to take over. It is their success or their failure on the line, not the musician. The musician can just move on to another venue. I’ve played places where, for whatever reason, only a few people have walked in the door on a Saturday night. The club owner got mad at me, asking, “where are the people?” I turned it around on him asking the same thing? “Where are all the people? It’s Saturday night and your venue is empty. Doesn’t that concern you? What are you going to do about it?”  Usually their answer is to find another band with a larger following.This means the professional bands get run out of the joint in favor of whoever can bring in the most people.

BUT HERE’S WHERE THE CLUB OWNER DOESN’T GET IT. THE CROWD IS FOLLOWING THE BAND, NOT THE VENUE. THE NEXT NIGHT YOU WILL HAVE TO START ALL OVER AGAIN.

Eddie Mechanic, who has slaved all week fixing cars at the local dealership, also plays guitar. Not very well,but he’s been practicing once a week with Doctor Drummer, Banker Bass Player, and Salesman Singer. Usually they just drink beer between rehearsing a few tunes in Eddie’s garage, but this week they answer a craigslist ad and line up a big gig. Well they don’t sound that good, but they sure all work with a lot of people everyday. All these people can be given a flyeron Monday and after being asked ”are you coming to my gig?” everyday all week, will most likely show up on Saturday night. So mission accomplished, the club owner has packed his venue for one night.

But here’s where the club owner doesn’t get it. The Crowd is following the band, not the venue. The next night you will have to start all over again. And the people that were starting to follow your venue, are now turned off because you just made them listen to a bad band. The goal should be to build a fan base for the venue. To get people that will trust that you will have good music in there every night. Instead you’ve soiled your reputation for a quick fix.

I think we as musicians need to fight back. Sure You can get mad about it, but that won’t do anything.We could all agree not to play those for the door gigs, but you know that isn’t going to happen. But what we can do, is explain to the club owner that it’s not in their best interest to operate their business like this. There is too much at stake for them not to be truly interested in the music presented in their venue. Convince them that if they think that live music is important to the demographic that they are trying to reach, then they need to reach out to that demographic in a professional way. [Read "HOW TO NEGOTIATE WITH A VENUE THAT SAYS THEY CAN’T PAY YOU"]

If you asked a club owner, ”who is your target demographic?”  I doubt they would answer, “the band’s friends and family.”  But yet clubs operate like it is.

WOULD YOU EXPECT THE CHEF’S FRIENDS AND FAMILY TO EAT AT YOUR RESTAURANT EVERY NIGHT? HOW ABOUT THE DISHWASHER, THE WAITRESSES, THE HOSTESS? YOU SEE, WHEN YOU START TURNING THIS ARGUMENT AROUND, IT BECOMES SILLY.

Another example, I answered a craigslist ad for a nice looking place in Beverly Hills. The ad read… ”looking for a high energy jazz band, if you can bring the band and have a following, I will put you on stage.” That logic seams to say that they think musicians in a jazz band know lots of people living in Beverly Hills. And the people those musicians know, have lots of money to spend. Those are two pretty big assumptions. Good luck finding the combination. Even if you find that combination, are you going to find it every night?  Friends and family of a professional musician won’t come out that often. They can’t. This is what we do every night. Would you expect the chef’s friends and family to eat at your restaurant every night? How about the dishwasher, the waitresses, the hostess? Or how about the club owners friends and family? You see, when you start turning this argument around, it becomes silly.

I’ve started arguing with club owners about this. It happened after I played a great night of music in LA. We were playing for a % of the bar. There were about50 people there in this small venue, so it was a good turnout. At the end of the night, I go to get paid, and hope to book another gig. The club owner was angry.  ”Where are your people?” he asked.  ”All these people, I brought in. We had a speed dating event  and they are all left over from that.”  I pointed out they all stayed and listened to the music for 2 hours after their event ended. That was 2 more hours of bar sales, because without us, you have an empty room with nothing going on. He just couldn’t get over the fact that we didn’t walk in with our own entourage of fans. Wasn’t he happy that we kept a full room spending money? Right when we were talking, a group of people interrupted us and said ”you guys sound  great, when is the next time you’re playing here again?” The club owner, said ”they aren’t, they didn’t  bring anyone.”

I went home that night bummed out and sent him an email telling him most of what you are reading here and how his business model and thinking is flawed. After a lot of swearing back and forth, because I’m guessing that musicians never talk to him as a business equal. He eventually admitted that what I was saying made sense. BUT, that’s not how LA clubs and restaurants work. And he has bands answering his craigslist ads willing to do whatever it takes to get the gig. It’s been a couple of years now since that conversation. I called his bar, and the number is disconnected.

So there you go, LA club and restaurant owners.The advice is free. But you’ll most likely ignore it because ”that’s not how it works”. But if more musicians kept telling them the same thing, perhaps it would start to sink in.

[Blackbird 13]

---

StageMasters wrote:

I understand it sounds like Red flag questions for you but most of the serious club owners only want to make sure they will make money out of a concert. If no one comes in, they lose money as they still have to pay you. You don't want to play for free and they don't want to open their bar to lose money either.

---

That isn't the way hiring someone for a job works. The chef doesn't go "oh, well.. no one bought anything to eat tonight, so I just won't get a paycheck from you. Nevermind my bills and my family.. I don't want your business to lose money".

chemikool wrote:

"What about if we have a bad night?"

----My responses:  

1)  Who makes this call...you?  Are you going to open up your books to me so that I can judge that myself?  If you'd like, we can work out a percentage of sales arrangement instead of a flat fee.

2)  What if you have a great night?  Seems like if you want us to take less if you make less, then we should get more if you make more - also - see number 1)  

3)  Skip it - don't even answer it - the manager is fishing to see how cheaply they can get you, or get out from under you if the night tanks.    Or...see 4)

4)  Our contract stipulates that you are purchasing our services.  Payment IN FULL for services rendered will be expected according to the terms of the contract.  I'll email/fax you a copy - what is your fax/email addy?

"How many people will you bring?"

----My responses:

1)  All of the venues that have my act perform all have drink and food specials to entice my crowd to come.  Why should my "crowd" come here - are you offering any discounts or specials?  Lets remember - who called who here...and with only a week's notice you aren't giving much to work with here.

2)  Including myself?  One - My car will be filled to the rim with gear so I can't bring anyone with me.  ***I know this isn't the question she MEANT to ask...but that is her fault not mine.***  Kinda cheeky, but so is the question to begin with...Assuming she means how many people can "the band" bring my response would be similar to 1) - however I might play the game, calling her bluff and say 20 people; simply to see what she says.  Any variation of "that's not enough" is all the red flag I need.

Sorta related to the OP:

I'm relatively hardline/assholish about booking though.  I've lost venues over the years because I don't put up with BS.  I've got a job (2 actually) and I don't have the time or inclination to put up with crap anymore.  I have a venue I've been playign for years that was just taken over by new management.  First thing they said was every solo/duo/group had to "re-audition" and they would use the January numbers for the February dates. 

I called up the owner and said "hey man, I'm already booked there twice in Feb, are you taking those off the calendar?" Owner said "maybe" --- I said when will you know? --- Owner said "end of Jan" --- I said I'm booked there the second weekend in Feb --- He said "maybe not" --- So I booked that night somewhere else; I don't live in maybe land.

Most of the time, if I get either of the OP's questions, I'll politely end the conversation, as the venue owner probably doesn't know what they're getting into.. or likely even the point of HIRING live entertainment in the first place.... but on the RARE occasion that I do entertain the conversation further, I would say something very similar. If you want me to take a cut when the night is slow, that also means you are giving me a bonus when the night is good. You want to transfer some of the cost of doing business onto MY business... and I may agree to that, if there's a financial reason to so. 20% of bar sales for the night is what's generally accepted as what you should be paying your band/DJ/poker guy/KJ/dancer/comedian/whatever. So there's a starting point.

Regarding the venue you're talking about.. unless there was some outstanding circumstance with this place (i.e. it's a top room... the only room in an area we want to get into... something like that), I would have politely told the new owner that we don't do business that way, and we would be pulling the dates. I'd wish him the best, POSSIBLY insinuate that his doing business like that isn't the best foot to start on... but either way, I'd politely pull the dates the second he begins talking about breaking agreements. If he wanted to rebook.. we could do that, but it would be a new set of contracts, and on agreeable terms for us both.

A local venue here often books national acts.. (1500-ish capacity). They called me once to open for a country artist. The woman on the phone was very excited.. talking about what a great opportunity it would be for us, blah, blah, blah. She then told me how we would have to sell X number of tickets, and then buy back the ones we didn't sell. I cut her off, and told her that my band makes $XXX to $XXXX every Friday and Saturday night (this was a Friday show I think), and she not only wanted us to book one of those nights for free, but she also wanted us to pay for tickets. I told her that we aren't Ticketmaster, and aren't in the business of selling tickets. She protested, again, that it was "good exposure". I told her that what she wanted would be akin to us saying we were going to hold a wedding or an event there, and that her venue could pay us for the privilage of having us there, and the "exposure" they'd get from our guests. I'm running a business, and that if she can name one way where it makes any BUSINESS sense, I'd play the show. I'll never forget this chick, who is used to this slick sales talk, going "uh... uh.. uh..." and then finally saying something along the lines of "I guess this just won't work out".

I don't know where this notion was born that just because our tools are guitars, drums, and microphones that our businesses are somehow less important or worth less.

[jeff42]

Since I started Ostrich Hat (First gig was two years ago in May) I have had very little patience for bar owners/managers like the one who called me today.

I made many mistakes time and time again for 10 years with my last band- we were anxious to play any gig that we landed. I Learned a lot from that experience and many of the long time posters here so now I vowed not to make the same mistakes with OH.

I still make a few LOL (like the brewpub that blacklisted us) but oh well...

Live and learn- and if not... there is always a GREAT story to tell here!

[StratGuy22]

Yup. My band has a set rate, if its too much, no problem at all, here's a couple DJ's I can recommend.

Same with doing sound. Here's my price. If its good, cool ill send over 2 copies of a signed contract, sign them both and return one with a $500 non-refundable deposit, and that date is written in stone.