Acoustic Guitars

[DeepEnd]

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Bad Robot wrote:

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Do you think the gouge was from the factory?  ...

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. . . There is also a German shop selling a full solid Sigma 000M-15 for €600.00. No way on earth I'd spend that for a Chinese knockoff. . . .

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It's worse than that. From what I can tell, all of the current crop of Sigmas are laminated with solid tops. There are no all-solid models listed on the web site: http://www.sigma-guitars.com/index.php?id=233

[Opa John]

I don't have a problem with laminated backs and sides. In fact, on a Chinese built guitar, I kinda prefer it.

I don't often hear a lot of difference in sound between laminated b/s and all solid wood guitars. And, as far as I'm concerned, I feel they're more durable and will outlive their all solid equivalent. The laminated models also don't require as much care and feeding (humidity controlwise) as the all solid models. JMO.

And as far as American made guitars go, I feel the same way. My DM has laminated back and sides and I know i've played some all solid Martins that don't sound as good as the one I have. Factor in the cost difference and it's pretty much a no-brainer to me.

For someone who doesn't play professionally, it seems kinda like a waste of money to spend the big bucks for all solid when laminated back and sides will do virtually just as well. Anybody listening to you couldn't tell the difference, anyway.

The right strings, the right pick, the right technique and the right song will make more difference in how you sound than the type of wood the back and sides of your guitar are made of.

[knockwood]

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DeepEnd wrote:

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Bad Robot wrote:

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Do you think the gouge was from the factory?  ...

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. . . There is also a German shop selling a full solid Sigma 000M-15 for €600.00. No way on earth I'd spend that for a Chinese knockoff. . . .

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It's worse than that. From what I can tell, all of the current crop of Sigmas are laminated with solid tops. There are no all-solid models listed on the web site: http://www.sigma-guitars.com/index.php?id=233

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Actually, some of their 15 Series guitars seem to be all solid.

I'm with Opa, to an extent. I don't necessarily prefer laminated b/s overall, but if the guitar sounds good I couldn't care less.

[DeepEnd]

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knockwood wrote:

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DeepEnd wrote:

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Bad Robot wrote:

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Do you think the gouge was from the factory?  ...

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. . . There is also a German shop selling a full solid Sigma 000M-15 for €600.00. No way on earth I'd spend that for a Chinese knockoff. . . .

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It's worse than that. From what I can tell, all of the current crop of Sigmas are laminated with solid tops. There are no all-solid models listed on the web site: http://www.sigma-guitars.com/index.php?id=233

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Actually, some of their 15 Series guitars seem to be all solid.

I'm with Opa, to an extent. I don't necessarily prefer laminated b/s overall, but if the guitar sounds good I couldn't care less.

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You're right. The model numbers beginning with "S" are all solid. However, I stand by my original point, which was that Bad Robot objected to spending €600.00 (about $820.00) on a "full-solid" 000M-15 and it's worse if the guitar in question has laminated back and sides, which it does unless it's the S000M-15. However, it's also about half the price of the Martin version, which Thomann.de sells for €1149.00: http://www.thomann.de/de/martin_guitars_00015m.htm. That said, I don't mind a guitar with laminated back and sides either, as long as I'm not paying all-solid prices and $800+ ought to get me an all solid guitar when the country of origin is China.

[Bad Robot]

Recently, Thomann and a couple of other German shops were selling their 000.15 Martins for €999.00, which would've made them a no-brainer compared to the solid Sigmas. In any case, as I said, the models I played left me underwhelmed. I am still gob-smacked at the quality of my €249.00 RK ROS-16, which has a solid top and lam back/sides. Another of my lam back/side gits, my Martin 000M, is also an astonishing guitar, that I have no intention of parting with in this lifetime. I just don't think the solid Sigmas are worth the money. I won't be getting a RK-126, btw, because fate has intervened and something special is coming down the pipeline (which makes 2 something specials, if I include the custom 12 string I will take delivery of early next month). I would have no problem recommending the RKs over the new Sigmas, as long as one has either the ability to try before buy, buys somewhere with a 30 day return policy, and knows a reliable tech to do a setup.

[katopp]

Frankly, China has come a long way from the first godawful instruments to what they build now. China's better factories are possibly as well equipped - if not better - than their western counterparts in terms of CNC and precision production. The letdown is, that they tar everything with the same brush. When the specs say it's got to be 2.1 mm top thickness, they constantly deliver 2.1 mm. That's good if the wood is consistent, but wood never is and so they build good guitars that are great for the price, but not GREAT guitars - other than the occasional stellar one in the Goldilocks zone - but also amazingly few duds.
But frankly, the days where some master luthier at Martin, Taylor, Gibson tap-tone-tuned a guitar are long gone, too. Well at least in their run-of-the-mill guitar series. Custom shop guitars are different, obviously. They come with a different price tag, too.
Bang for the buck, China's better guitars are hard to beat. Even though my Binh guitars are about 1/6 of Martin Custom Shop prices, they have a hard time giving a good Chinese guitar a run for their money. In recording, yes. In living room playing, yes. In an acoustic duo .... I don't know, possibly yes. In a pub? No way. At a loud'ish gig? No way. Whenever the basic punch and basic sound of a guitar is more important than the "icing on the cake" of airyness and intricate three-dimensional shimmers, China beats it every time. At a price point that turns an instrument from an investment into a commodity. Why should I worry about my $2000+ Martin, when the Chinese Sigma is about as good? For 1/4 of the price. And let's be honest, if you omit the bling thing, you will still get the same woods, construction and components for even less.

No, honestly, we live in the best times for guitarist's ever. Compare what you get for your money now with what you would've got - inflation adjusted - some 20 years ago. Today, you wouldn't touch that stuff from yesteryear with a bargepole - not for the (inflation adjusted) price.

[Bad Robot]

There is also a downside to that, one being that many accumulate too many guitars because they are cheap and good quality. I am currently downsizing, and replacing a bunch with a couple of really good, locally made, ones. Almost all of the ones I've sold, or intend to sell, come from China.

[katopp]

I'm selling some MiC guitars, too.
But I replace them with bespoke custom guitars handmade in Vietnam.

[EdBega]

I'll probably pass on the Sigma, the 000M-15S is very tempting though, unless the US market becomes a little more saturated then I'd be more interested. Shame, I have been gassin for a fat necked 000 12 fret hog for sometime.