Shopping for a soprano sax

[pogo97]

My daughter (13) recently changed from tenor sax to soprano sax and has really taken to it. Her tone surprises me on the fairly cheap sax she's borrowed from the school and she's very happy playing it -- clearly the instrument is a good fit. When she goes to high school next year, though, their program doesn't support soprano sax as there are very few band parts for it and they don't have one to loan. So I've made up a Kijiji search for soprano saxes for sale within 250 kilometres and am finding a few. But I'm not a sax player and don't know the brands or their resale value. My theory is that a $2000 used sax that we can sell in five years for $2000 is a better deal than a new $800 Chinese sax that we can sell in five years for $400. But I may be wrong.

 

My question is -- where can I find out more about soprano saxophones and the soprano saxophone market (which is, let's face it, pretty small and scattered).

[Dendy Jarrett]

Pogo97: I am guessing you may be in Canada or Europe with the reference to kilometres? You may get on eBay and do a similar search. I can assess values to thinks pretty quickly on eBay. Heck you may even find what you are looking for. If you are indeed in the US or Canada, you may try calling Woodwind & Brasswind, as they have some specialist who can help.

 

Just a thought.

 

Thanks

D

[pogo97]

Thanks, Dendy. Canada. I'll check out Woodwind & Brasswind and eBay. Kijiji, unfortunately, doesn't want to show me American posts, even though I'm within about ten miles of the border and I haven't found a workaround. No big rush, though, since she can probably borrow the school instrument through the summer holidays.

[Phil O'Keefe]

My theory is that a $2000 used sax that we can sell in five years for $2000 is a better deal than a new $800 Chinese sax that we can sell in five years for $400. But I may be wrong.

 

I would tend to agree with that logic.

 

My question is -- where can I find out more about soprano saxophones and the soprano saxophone market (which is, let's face it, pretty small and scattered).

 

The biggest Sax forums and sites are probably Sax on the Web and Saxophone.org and I'm sure you can get lots of good suggestions from the folks there, or from doing a bit of reading and lurking. I'd look for a good quality used instrument like you were thinking. I'd stick with the big / well-respected brands if possible and avoid the ultra-cheap imports. Models from companies like Yamaha, H Couf / Keilwerth, Selmer and Yanagisawa will be your best bets in terms of quality and retaining their resale value down the line.

 

One more thing - make sure you take your daughter, or another competent player with you when you go to check out the sax. Saxophone is a very mechanically complex instrument. You need to make sure it's fully playable, and that it doesn't have any issues with the key mechanisms, corks, and pads.

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

What? Someone posting in woodwinds? Sorry I didn't notice sooner Pogo. I thought this forum had rigor mortise.

 

+1 for Sax On The Web.

 

I've only owned one soprano in my life, and I wouldn't recommend it. It was a Winston and got it in trade for some of the Band-in-a-Box software that I write. The tone was thin, the intonation bad, and the high E was difficult to hit (Eb and F were fine).

 

Sopranos are tricky in the intonation department anyway. If you can bring a chromatic tuner when you test drive it it might serve you well. Some saxes are better than others. This includes well respected brand/models. I had an early 1960s Selmer Mark VI tenor. Beautiful horn and now as revered as the pre-CBS Fenders or original Les Pauls. The intonation wasn't so good. I traded it in for a Mark VII years later, which had excellent intonation but thinner tone. When I bought my Grassi, I tried out 3 with close serial numbers. One had excellent intonation, the other two moderate (average).

 

I had a student who bought a Jupiter, and it was decent, but most of my time has been on Tenor or Alto so I can't say how it compares to others.

 

Insights and incites by Notes.

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

The tone was thin, the intonation bad...

 

Well, it WAS a soprano...

 

Sopranos are tricky in the intonation department anyway. If you can bring a chromatic tuner when you test drive it it might serve you well.

 

Excellent suggestion!

 

Some saxes are better than others. This includes well respected brand/models. I had an early 1960s Selmer Mark VI tenor. Beautiful horn and now as revered as the pre-CBS Fenders or original Les Pauls. The intonation wasn't so good.

 

SOOO true!

 

I had a Mark VI alto when I was in school. It was a great sax. I wish I still had it.

 

I had a friend with a Yamaha at the time; C# was so sharp on it, you couldn't even lip it down far enough to get it in tune. It was closer to D than C#. We had another friend with the same model, and his was fine. Like guitars, there's some variation from instrument to instrument, even when comparing new instruments of the same make / model.

[Notes_Norton]

My Mark VI played so sharp that I had to wrap some paper at the end of the cork to secure the mouthpiece as it was pulled all the way out. But the preferred Bb was so flat, I couldn't lip it to pitch. I had to use one of the alternate fingerings.

 

I've had 3 Selmers, and they all played sharp, but the best intonation was on the Mark VII

 

The US, German, Italian, and Taiwanese horns I've owned always played with the mouthpiece over halfway in the cork. I don't know why Selmers are sharp for me, they are for others, but not everybody.

 

I also have a 1925 Silver Plated King Alto - the intonation is challenging, but it has the voice of an angel. i Wouldn't trade it for a mint Mark VI with original lacquer.

 

What I'd really like, but will never probably buy is a King Silversonic Tenor (sterling silver bell and neck plus under-slung octave key vent) made before they moved the factory to Eastlake.

 

The problem is when you play sax (tenor and alto), guitar, flute, keyboard synth, wind synth, and bass, there is just too many categories to spread your GAS over. And when you play music for a living, you tend to have to justify your purchases on what it will do to your audience. And a Silversonic won't do anything to my audience than my custom made MacSax won't do.

 

However, if we suddenly 'make it big' and I bring down mega-bucks, I might get that Silversonic just because they look and sound great.

 

But at my age, I'm not holding my breath about making it big anymore. I just enjoy my life and feel lucky that I can still make a living doing music and nothing but music.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[Phil O'Keefe]

The problem is when you play sax (tenor and alto), guitar, flute, keyboard synth, wind synth, and bass, there is just too many categories to spread your GAS over.

 

Guitar, bass, banjo, mandolin, keyboards, reeds, a bit of drums and percussion... and a recording studio. The studio's a bigger GAS* money pit than any of them.

 

I never could get the hang of flute - the embouchure always eluded me. I started on clarinet, and with the wise counsel of my junior high band director, switched to sax. First tenor, then bari and alto... I used to switch between alto and bari all the time. I've never owned a soprano though. I have a wind controller, but not a real sax ATM, but I've been GASsing to change that. I doubt I'll ever have another bari sax though - I really can't justify what a decent one would cost. I'll have to settle for a decent tenor or alto.

 

 

 

*Gear Acquisition Syndrome, for those unfamiliar with the term.

[pogo97]

I may see if we can buy the soprano off the school. The high school she'll be going to has no support for soprano sax, so it's a bit goofy to have one in the primary program. But Acacia really enjoys soprano sax and sounds good on it and it's just a high school band -- put her in with the clarinets. She's going for a week of summer band and can use the school's sax for that, anyway. She played tenor for two years but hates lugging it around.

 

She's no technician, but I love her sound.

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

 

Guitar, bass, banjo, mandolin, keyboards, reeds, a bit of drums and percussion... and a recording studio. The studio's a bigger GAS* money pit than any of them.

 

I never could get the hang of flute - the embouchure always eluded me. I started on clarinet, and with the wise counsel of my junior high band director, switched to sax. First tenor, then bari and alto... I used to switch between alto and bari all the time. I've never owned a soprano though. I have a wind controller, but not a real sax ATM, but I've been GASsing to change that. I doubt I'll ever have another bari sax though - I really can't justify what a decent one would cost. I'll have to settle for a decent tenor or alto.

 

 

 

*Gear Acquisition Syndrome, for those unfamiliar with the term.

I don't have an audio studio, just a MIDI studio (hardware sound modules, hardware samplers, mixer, etc.) so I've avoided the big money pit.

 

I started on drums in the Jr.High School band. I was new, and all the instruments were already rented. I really wanted to play baritone horn. Then the tenor sax player's family moved, and when the band director asked who wanted to play it, I guess I was more enthusiastic than the others.

 

By the time I got to high school, I got first chair in the all-state band every year and took the section leader away from the first alto. I guess it suited me.

 

I never owned a bari, and my wind synth setup can do decent enough bari (Yamaha WX5 and Yamaha VL70-m with custom "turbo" sound chip). In fact, it can do decent enough trumpet, trombone, clarinet, soprano sax, alto sax (I sold me soprano and don't take the alto to the gig anymore). It also does a passable organ, harmonica, and guitar with the limitation that I can't do harmony with that module. I can play better lead guitar on the synth than I can on the real guitar, but then I've been playing the sax since the 1950s and the guitar for only about 8 years - and not giving it the time it deserves (making a living gets in the way).

 

I play in a duo with my wife, and I sequence our own backing tracks. That way they are in our key, in our arrangement, and by sequencing them myself, I know the songs inside and out, what the chords are, what any chord substitutions are, and I think I have balanced them for live performance (little things like adding rim crack to snare drums, exaggerating the groove a little, speeding up B sections, and all the things we used to do in all the 100% live bands I've been in). That leaves very little practice time for guitar, (and less time for the audio studio money pit).

 

In fact, I posted a couple of clips of my synth guitar playing on the Gibson/Epiphone forum and asked them to evaluate my playing. I didn't tell them it was guitar or synth playing, just my playing. The guitarists assumed it was guitar and I got plenty of compliments, including one who said it was Jeff Beck-ish (to me that's the ultimate - he is a technical wizard). When I came clean and said I played them on my synth, only one person said he though something about the whammy vibrato seemed odd to him. The rest thought it was a real guitar.

 

http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_oldtimeguitar.mp3

 

This one recorded on an Archos MP3 Juke Box hung in front of the speakers so the audio quality lacks (big time)

 

http://www.nortonmusic.com/mp3/_personalchoice.mp3

 

The second one I did on a guitar friend's CD in his home studio. He wanted synth guitar because he liked it (used with permission).

 

I taught myself flute. I bought a used flute from a fan and she showed me the embouchure. Flute is constantly challenging because of that. Especially since my lower lip is calloused from sax reeds. If I don't play flute for a while (like vacation) at first it's difficult to get low C and there is too much breath noise. A bit of gigging fixes that (if you can't practice on stage, where CAN you practice?)

 

The wind synth doesn't do a great flute - I think it's one of the VL70-m's weak points. There are a lot of improper things a jazz/rock flute player does for expression and the synth won't do them - it plays it straight. But I have a flute so that's OK.

 

I may see if we can buy the soprano off the school. The high school she'll be going to has no support for soprano sax, so it's a bit goofy to have one in the primary program. But Acacia really enjoys soprano sax and sounds good on it and it's just a high school band -- put her in with the clarinets. She's going for a week of summer band and can use the school's sax for that, anyway. She played tenor for two years but hates lugging it around.

 

She's no technician, but I love her sound.

 

<...snip...>

 

Acacia is young, lacking some control, but has a good artistic feel for it. Phrasing, note bending ornaments are good for her age -- and with time the technique and maturity will come. It just takes the hours and hours of doing it. And if she loves it, that's all that matters. Give her an atta-girl from me. BTW, the soprano is the hardest of the saxes to control - don't tell her I mentioned the control, it will come all by itself - no need to put any negative thoughts into her head.

 

Clarinet is a good basis for a woodwind player. I didn't get that and sometimes feel a little deprived of that. She might also like Alto in high school. It's close in pitch. You can get (almost) straight alto saxes, but they'd be expensive and depending on her attitude they could be weird in the eyes of her classmates (or special if she is that kind of gal). But they would sound more soprano-like.

 

 

Buescher is an old name, but other companies still make them.

 

 

[pogo97]

Thanks for the responses. And thank you, Notes, for the critique. I'm watching for soprano saxes on Kijiji within about 100 miles -- which includes Toronto and Montreal -- and when one seems interesting, I'm checking it further on the recommended sites. There's a Selmer and a Keilwerth and a Yamaha all between 2k & 3k and a pile of stuff under 1k. Not rushing to get any of them, but lots of food for thought.

[Notes_Norton]

Be sure to bring an electronic tuner.

 

When I bought my Grassi, I tried 3 of them. 2 had difficult intonation and the one I kept had excellent intonation. They had close serial numbers too.

 

And sopranos are trickier than tenors in that department.

 

When she gets her sax, have her play long notes in front of the tuner with a warmed up sax. Lip the notes until they are in tune, and she will learn the signature of that saxophone. It will help her play in tune because her muscle memory will know which way to lip the horn and her ears will tell her when it's enough.

 

Bob