Members Hijinx Guitars Posted April 14, 2017 Members Share Posted April 14, 2017 I'm working on a project testing out some ideas I have that would allow the player to adjust the tone of their instrument without the use of electronics. Curious how much interest there would be in something like this? I just started a blog about a month ago to document what I'm doing - if interested check it out. https://hijinxguitars.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 15, 2017 Members Share Posted April 15, 2017 I tried to respond to this earlier today bu t the thread temporarily went away. I sent it to you via the "contact" section of your web page. To make a long story short, I've very interested. I build and play resonators, have some issues with some of your statements but I'll be interested in seeing just what you mean by "allowing the player to adjust the tone of their instrument" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hijinx Guitars Posted April 15, 2017 Author Members Share Posted April 15, 2017 Thanks for the feedback Freeman Keller! I got your email and will respond to it. You clearly have a great deal of experience with resonator guitars. Finding folks like you that are willing to engage and share is exactly why I started this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 15, 2017 Members Share Posted April 15, 2017 I can and will respond to your e-mail but it might be far more interesting to carry on that conversation here. There are other slide and resonator players and in general I think this would be of interest to many acoustic players. If you are willing I would copy and paste your e-mail into this thread and we can carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigald18 Posted April 15, 2017 Members Share Posted April 15, 2017 I thought we always has a prohibition about people using this forum for advertisng? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 15, 2017 Members Share Posted April 15, 2017 I don't think he is advertising anything, Al. From the looks of his website he really isn't selling anything, just wants to build this guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hijinx Guitars Posted April 16, 2017 Author Members Share Posted April 16, 2017 Nothing for sale guys. Just exploring some building techniques and concepts that might be of interest. If it all came together and I found the next paperclip who knows. Promise I'll follow the rules. Freeman Keller - I'd gladly share our email. Might be a little long? I'm a very new to doing this forum stuff - don't want to dominate it. We covered a lot and you gave me a ton of info to chew on - thank you! Would it better to piece it out? Maybe as individual topics over time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 16, 2017 Members Share Posted April 16, 2017 Let me make a couple of humble suggestions. First become an active member of this forum - I know you have a lot to contribute to a variety of topics (you may also wan to check out the Electric Guitar subforum). Second,either in this thread or another, pitch your ideas about how someone could adjust the tone of their guitar - we've had some interesting theoretical and practical discussions about all sorts of guitar design parameters. Third, as you formulate you design, ask questions here on the forum. We have players of all abilities who own all sorts of guitars, including a number of resonator and slide players - ask what they like and why. Lastly, as you build your guitar, do a build thread. Post pictures of your progress, the tools and materials and methods that you use. I've done several build threads over the years, they are always popular and usually generate a lot of discussion. I'll look forward to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hijinx Guitars Posted April 18, 2017 Author Members Share Posted April 18, 2017 Thank you for the suggestions - very much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 18, 2017 Members Share Posted April 18, 2017 Hijinx, as a way of getting to know the forum and in answer to some of your questions off forum, I posted five clips of the same song on the thread entitled VOM1T April 2017. The VOM stands for Virtual Open Mic, One Take, and is designed for forum members to share their music. I thought that by checking that out you will learn a little bit more about some of our members and the kinds of music they play (we've got some incredibly talented musicians here!). Anyway, I posted three kinds of resonators, a Weissenborn lap guitar and one of my 12 strings, all in open G playing the same song. Forgive the playing, my wife says I'm a better builder than player (and I agree), the significant thing is trying to put into words the sounds of the different guitars Hope this helps, I'm still trying to figure out how you will change that in the finished guitar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hijinx Guitars Posted April 20, 2017 Author Members Share Posted April 20, 2017 I got a response to a similar question I posted from another forum resource: "Never seen the Beard "X" model? It was the development platform that was used to design his baffled guitars. Movable/adjustable 'scoop", "baffle" and screens. All without disassembly using flippers & levers. The guitar goes on display at a variety of shows, festivals..." I've searched the web and couldn't find anything on what he was referring too. So far he hasn't provided any more info than that. Be cool to see some pics or articles. Maybe your aware of this mythical beast? Could be along the lines of what I'm thinking of however my intent is not something as mechanical like this on sounds to be. Will check out the thread you mentioned - thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 21, 2017 Members Share Posted April 21, 2017 I'm not familiar with the Beard guitar but I think that Beard's baffled design goes back quite a few years - maybe someone at the reso forum would know. I have followed (and participated) in some of the double blind studies on sound ports and baffled f-holes on some acoustic guitars. Results were rather inconclusive. I've also done some experimenting on guitars that I build - on three different occassions I have built two or three "identical" guitars with one difference - in some cases we could tell, in some cases, not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 21, 2017 Members Share Posted April 21, 2017 I'll add that Paul Beard does have a tailpiece that allows you to switch between open D and open G by just throwing a lever. The kit costs 600 bucks and I have a hard time convincing myself that it is something I would want, I'm also not sure if the "open G" setting is low bass G like most blues players use or high bass like most dobro players use. If you are thinking of something like that, its already been done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hijinx Guitars Posted April 23, 2017 Author Members Share Posted April 23, 2017 Yeah I couldn't see spending that kind of money on something like that either. Hope to find some info Beard's baffle - will share it when i do. I've got to get some work done my prototype to show what I'm up to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 24, 2017 Members Share Posted April 24, 2017 Obviously you've discovered the reso hangout - I don't go there much since I really don't play dobro style. However those are the folks that would know about different baffle schemes. I know they make a difference in the sound, I'll be interested to see what your design does with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gardo Posted April 24, 2017 Members Share Posted April 24, 2017 My acoustic guitar is an ACOUSTIC guitar. I have always controlled the tone without electronics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hijinx Guitars Posted April 28, 2017 Author Members Share Posted April 28, 2017 Yep your right Gardo - acoustic is acoustic. I intend to keep it that way an with a few design twists with the acoustic elements/ design attributes of the guitar perhaps provide the player with even more options to work with their tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted April 29, 2017 Members Share Posted April 29, 2017 My acoustic guitar is an ACOUSTIC guitar. I have always controlled the tone without electronics. Gardo, what he is talking about is a resonator, which I consider a mechanically amplified guitar. It is acoustic only in that it doesn't use electrickity to make itself louder. Hijinx is talking about some sort of way to change that sound by moving some sort of baffles around inside of it - he hasn't been at all clear hear but he does hint about it on his blog. People have made attempts at baffles and sliding doors on sound ports and things like that in the past - usually when they find the sound they like they leave it that way. People have also build different internal baffling systems in resonators - almost always spider bridges (Hijinx is building a biscuit). The traditional spider bridge has a cone well with a bunch of holes in it, more modern ones have an open interior. People have tried all sorts of baffles and things inside guitars over the years - Lloyd Loar had his Virzi thingie, many Sel-Macs have an internal sound box. Tony Rice hogged out the sound hole on his D28. Do they help? In theory changing the internal air volume and any apertures is going to have an effect on sound - Helmholtz resonance and all that stuff - I think its going to be pretty minor but it will be interesting. Alan Carruth has demonstrated in double blind testing as well and instrumented evaluation of a couple of instruments that sound ports make a small but detectable difference in the sound of an acoustic guitar. I'm guessing that Hijinx will find something similar http://www.alcarruthluthier.com/guitars/corker.htm http://www.alcarruthluthier.com/Downloads/sidePorts.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted April 30, 2017 Moderators Share Posted April 30, 2017 At winter NAMM 2016 I stumbled on Rick Keeler...you guys might find his site of interest, although not specifically for REsonaters, in a sense, he applies a somewhat similar concept in a very different way...https://keelersound.com/ the 'Harmony Central' quote is from my NAMM report which is in the 2016 Winter NAMM subforum... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted April 30, 2017 Members Share Posted April 30, 2017 At winter NAMM 2016 I stumbled on Rick Keeler...you guys might find his site of interest, although not specifically for REsonaters, in a sense, he applies a somewhat similar concept in a very different way...https://keelersound.com/ the 'Harmony Central' quote is from my NAMM report which is in the 2016 Winter NAMM subforum... Any idea how it compares sonically to the PUTW Quackbuster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted April 30, 2017 Moderators Share Posted April 30, 2017 Keeler's unit is not electronic...he does have some fitted with wireless mics though, but the 'magic' is in altering the internal 'shaping' of sound inside the guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hijinx Guitars Posted May 17, 2017 Author Members Share Posted May 17, 2017 Been really booked up lately with various projects... Think I've got a bit of ADD cause I've been all over the place. My shop looks like the island of misfit toys right now. This is some great info everyone, thanks for contributing. The read on the "Corker" and related experiment summary was really informative. I suspect your right Freeman that the changes will be minor but I think still valuable. I plan to do some spectral analysis once I get things pulled together to quantify the effect. Good point made also that once you find your sweet spot it likely wont be changed - I do this with my electrics too. Very little fiddling while playing once I find it. This is exactly what I'm hoping to accomplish on an acoustic instrument with the ideas I've got. Daddymack - THANK YOU for the Keelersound link. That is a really cool idea, I'll have to dig into what they are doing some more. Most of my shop time this past week or so has been playing around with one of the ideas I'm exploring: the cone ring - been through a few iterations. Attached is a pic of one of them just about ready to assemble. Kinda get the idea how the sliders would work on the sound well. After fitting up to the top and forms I'm not crazy about the ports on the front side - may abandon the slide & ports on that part of the well (group of three - center on the neck stick). The posts on the sliders directed at the rear bouts would be discrete protruding the top right next to the cone cover and only have to move about an inch. Before the debates start on phase cancellation... yep, I get it - doing it anyway. [ATTACH=CONFIG]n31979119[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted May 17, 2017 Members Share Posted May 17, 2017 If your sound well goes all the way from the top to the back and if your little baffles actually do close off the holes then I think you will hear a difference. One way to think of a resonator guitar (any guitar for that matter but a reso in particular) is the analogy to a loud speaker enclosure - the movement of the cone is very similar to a speaker (altho obviously much less displacement). As you know different kinds of speaker enclosures either have an open back (which you won't be able to emulate), a completely sealed box or some sort of port. With your ports closed you will have the small air volume behind the cone to load it, with the ports open you will have the air being pumped in and out of the larger volume and then the f-holes or whatever apertures you provide in the body. My understanding of traditional vs modern dobro construction is that the old ones like mine have a sound well going from the top to back with holes in it, much like yours with the ports open I haven't really looked at the modern designs but I believe the well itself is gone and the whole cone area is opened into the sound box, I believe there are some posts to support the top to the back but otherwise I think they look something like this Obviously there are some other huge differences between those two guitar that I think affect the sound far more than the internal construction (one is a spider, one is a biscuit, obviously they are built out of different materials. If I understand your design you will close those holes in the first picture, that will change not only the air volume but the way it is pumped in and out of the box - should be interesting. A couple of other random comments - - you probably know that Audacity will convert time domain wave forms into frequency domain (ie will do a Fourier transform). That is probably the most effective way to show differences in sound "quality" or "tone" and is used frequently in discussions of the effects of some modification on the tone of an instrument. You may have software and equipment that you prefer to use but Audacity is free and can produce all the data pretty easily - I've book marked your web page and am trying to follow your build but since I don't do social media it pretty hard to keep up and to comment. Obviously this is not an active forum for either resophonic guitars or lutherie in general, you might want to start a thread at one of the lutherie forums if you would like comments from other builders. OLF does have a subforum dedicated to resonators, you might consider a thread there http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10104&sid=4a50d8dbf7ecf892f49b60002c17f5d1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hijinx Guitars Posted May 20, 2017 Author Members Share Posted May 20, 2017 Thanks again for your input and advice Freeman! Been wrestling with the mechanics of it all so progress to share on this part of the build has been sparse. Juggling a bit between doing a great job from a "finish" standpoint and just working through the concepts. Since I really just wanted to prove out some ideas I may let the finish aspects slide a bit. This was intended to be a prototype after all - If it all works out I'll start over with a much more refined approach. Darn full time job and other distractions like the website/social media networking gets in the way too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted May 20, 2017 Members Share Posted May 20, 2017 Obviously that is up to you. I understand prototyping but personally, if I'm going to put a bunch of time (and in the case of a resonator, a couple hundred bucks worth of hardware) into a guitar I tend to want it to look as good as I can make it. In my humble (take it for what its worth) - there are a couple of possibilities. First, as you stated in your original post, this might be a way to change the sound of your guitar on the fly. Kind of like switching between the bridge and neck pups - throw the little lever that moves the baffle and - bingo - different sound. I actually had the impression that was your goal Another possibility is that you find you like one configuration better than the other and you leave it that way. Or decide to build another guitar with that internal design - you've decided that is the "best" way to build a sound well. Third possibility is that it turns out to be a hassle - the baffle is hard to move, it rattles (resonators are notorious for rattles) or you just don't like it. In that case not putting a lot of effort into materials or finish might make sense. Last possibility is that the difference is so subtle that you can't really hear it. That will be interesting - to listen to sound clips (blind of course) and to look at the FFT's to see if there is any different in the makeup of the partials (and to speculate on why). My limited experience with acoustic guitars in general and resonators in particular tells me that while every part of a guitar does contribute to its sound some are way more important than others. Your little experiment may tell you just how much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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