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Pickups, does your guitar even matter?


missedmyexit

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Been thinking of getting a pickup for my Martin 00-17 but do not want to install a permanent pickup. I was thinking something along the line of a Fishman Neo. Question is how much of the guitars sound does those actually pickup? Does this just come down to the quality of the pickup rather then the quality of the guitar?

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Been thinking of getting a pickup for my Martin 00-17 but do not want to install a permanent pickup. I was thinking something along the line of a Fishman Neo. Question is how much of the guitars sound does those actually pickup? Does this just come down to the quality of the pickup rather then the quality of the guitar?

 

 

Yes and no.

 

Once you put a pick up in a guitar, it a whole different game.

 

You want to try to get something that represents the guitar you are playing, but not necessarily.

 

 

 

You can get the Martin 0017 with a factory pre installed pup, and it should be very nice.

 

 

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I guess thats part of the idea of electric guitars , quality pickups- quality sound ( for the most part )

but tonation, action etc matter as well .

 

I have a pickup in only one of my acoustics -and have been thinking about removing it - i dont play out any more and its just their -and doesn't need to be.

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The little bit I have learned building a few electric guitars and installing pickups in acoustics for other folks is that once you plug it its the pup and amp and signal chain that have the most effect on sound - wood and construction and all that stuff that we fuss over still makes a difference but its far less important.

 

I think that each of the various acoustic pickups has its own sound - UST, bridge plate piezo, soundhole magnetic like your Neo, internal mic all have their own sound (and quirks) kind of like a humbucker vs a soap bar vs a single coil. The soundhole mags are certainly the easiest to install but I'm getting lots of requests for K&K bridge plate units and I like what I hear when I plug them in.

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. . . I was thinking something along the line of a Fishman Neo. Question is how much of the guitars sound does those actually pickup? . . .

Basically none. Magnetic pickups respond to the vibration of the strings the same way they do in an electric guitar. All the wood stuff is eliminated. That's largely true for USTs as well. The Fishman Rare Earth Blend has a built-in mike so you can get some of your guitar's real tone but it's not cheap: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/fishman-rare-earth-blend-soundhole-pickup. You can compare various pickups here: http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/.

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it depends, what do you want?

just being amplified, no matter what, so you are being heard while gigging?

this magnetic pickups in the soundhole are the easiest way to do it, but you lose mostly the character of the sound of your guitar.

you still get great results and in full band context it mostly doesn't matter

 

if your are nasal about your sound and guitar and maybe a solo act doing neil young like finger picking stuff, the sound of your guitar might play a big role and you want to transport this to the audience, you might want some other (pickup) solution, something including a mic, something you put inside your guitar and install permanently....

 

so is the sound of that guitar really important to you, or do ou just want to have the possibility to play live?

 

 

a side note about electric guitars:

not only because of the pickups a strat sounds different than a tele, than a les paul, than a sg, than an es335 etc.

you can put the same pickups in all of them, but still body type/shape, neck and construction make a huge difference in sound, maybe at a different level as at accoustic instruments, but the difference is significant, some might not care, for others (like me) it might be very important :D

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A pickup only captures the string tone and whatever wood tone can pass through the string. Like a reverb spring some wood tone passes through the string from its ends.

 

That's not where an acoustic guitar gets its best tones. An acoustic guitar produces most of its deep tones from the bodies sound board moving and its cavity resonance pushing sound from the port. Its more like a hi fi speaker in that aspect. The speaker excites the air inside the box and its ported to project the sound.

 

A Piezo element only captures the vibration in the bridge area, which is better but still not ideal. It gets vibration of the sound board and semi direct vibrations of the string but it doesn't capture the resonance captured from the port. Still with the proper preamp and EQing its still much better then an inductive pickup that only captures the string vibrations.

 

Your best on board systems use a mic and a Piezo. The Piezo collects the direct wood vibration and the mic captures the tones in the air that come from the top sides and back of the guitar. Even here there are short comings because the mic is capturing the sound from within the body. It's like sticking a mic inside your lungs and capturing the resonance of the voice before its projected from your lips.

 

All of these focus on the strings or body, none of them address the metallic tones that come from the neck, frets, Pick etc.

 

Micing an acoustic can produce the best tones as heard by others. Because the transducers are external and pick up the air movement around the outside of the instrument, any exaggerations are minimized. Here again, there are short comings. Mics have focused areas of sensitivity and often suffer from proximity effects. The mics don't move when the player moves and small movements can change the overall tone and clarity. Playing live you have to have an excellent sound system and even then you have volume vs feedback issues.

 

The other important item is dialing up the right external mic sound is best done by someone who isn't playing the instrument. A guitarist is going to feel the instruments vibrations as much as he hears it and what he hears is coming from a 90 degree angle to the port which the audience hears. He will favor his own ears and attempt to make tonal adjustments suitable to what he hears and feels directly when playing and neglect what sounds natural to an audience in front of him.

 

What's the solution? Simply do the best you can with what you got. All of these methods have they're short comings so you'll never get 100% of what you actually want or need. Personally I think the combination of mic and Piezo is the best for a performer. He has the mobility he wants, doesn't have to haul extra mics and be chained to them, the elements can be mounted out of sight and modding an existing instrument does minimal damage, the most you may need to do is install a new tail strap pin that holds the mic suspended in the guitar and acts as a plug jack. It also contains a preamp for the Piezo element. The preamp can be external which means you don't have to cut holes in the body for a preamp and knobs.

These systems are cheap however. They can cost more then the guitar itself

 

The unit I installed in my acoustic works fairly well. The guitar is an old beater and I got the system for chump change. The preamp unit fits in the side of a guitar so I did have to cut a square hole like many acoustic electrics have. The preamp has a built in mic so that covers the internal resonance of the body with a mic. I also drilled a pin hole under the bridge to install a Piezo element. I did have to lower the saddle to accommodate it. The preamp has a balance control between the internal mic and Piezo and I'm able to get some fairly decent tones between the two. When I record I also use an external mic so I essentially have 3 sound sources going. The tone isn't bad considering how old and beat the guitar is. Its really seen its day and it simply isn't worth having the bridge removed and sound board straightened. I would be easier to just buy an acoustic electric then modify it a bit.

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Personally I hate piezos. Quack quack and all that. As for goosenecks, in the wrong setting they can actually hoot like an owl. It's all fowl.

 

Freeman speaks the truth about soundboard transducer microphones like the K&K Pure Western mini and JJB Prestige 330. I put one of each in two guitars - that is to say that my Larrivee OM has a K&K PWM and my Martin dreadnought has a JJB. Both pickups have three transducers which are quasi-permanently installed with superglue to the bridge plate beneath the bridge and for all intents and purposes have the identical design. I also have an external K&K Pure XLR preamp that while quite bulky is something that mount on my music stand. Both pickups are what I would call "minimally invasive" and virtually invisible. I wouldn't be caught dead carving a hole in my solid wood guitars to mount a preamp. That would just compromise the guitar structurally so the preamp sits in the middle of the signal chain but in reach.

 

Functionally, the SBT type pickups are "passive" but pick up a LOT of signal not only from the saddle but from the entire soundboard, making it essentially a huge diaphragm. It can be cumbersome because you can hear every errant scuff and thump - and even your voice if you sing into the soundhole - not to mention that it's really prone to feed back - but for solo stuff it's a great way to be a "one man band" as it lends well to percussive techniques. Tonally, they are a lot more natural sounding than piezos in that they can pick up a lot of bass and midrange - though I'd advise using a preamp to cut them back to bring out the trebles.

 

As for where the guitar itself factors into things, I've found that the more robustly built the guitar the better the response from the SBT. In this case, I feel like the Larrivee serves me better as an acoustic/electric even though the Martin has a more pleasing tone when played unplugged. I attribute that to weight, bracing pattern and IMO is inversely proportionate to internal air volume.

 

For instance, my Martin dreadnought is made with Honduran mahogany which is relatively lighter in weight that the east Indian rosewood that my Larrivee OM-03R's back and sides. It took a good year of playing to get the Larrivee to fully "open up" whereas the Martin was ready out of the box. Conversely, I've found the Larrivee to be more "robust" and able to take more "abuse" and is less sensitive to changes in temperature and humidity - though I did not actively test this; my wife and kids did!

 

Cosntruction-wise, the Larrivee is also more stiffly braced with non scalloped sitka braces that have a parabolic profile and a single lower face tonebar that is placed laterally between the lower arms of the X brace - as opposed to the Martin's lighter asymmetrical modified/hybrid X bracing pattern that is partly scalloped and V shaped in profile. Again, the Larrivee took some tweaking: I upgraded the saddle and nut to bone and had it set up for mediums auge strings (the same exact string I put on the Martin BTW) and again put a good year or so of play time where it seemed to finally ring out longer.

 

The Martin is a dread so it's got more internal air volume, but unplugged it's got a "scooped" midrange whereas the smaller Larrivee's tone is more "in your face" with strong mids and what I'd call a modest bass response. I can hit the strings on the Martin with wanton abandon without fear of hearing it "break up" whereas on the Larrivee if I play hard the strings (which are set low for fingerstyle) will slap off the frets and the guitar will make a sound akin to symbols crashing. Naturally, I have to play the Larrivee with more restraint - but OTOH it seems to be a much more "responsive" instrument when played with a deft hand.

 

Getting back to the results of my experimenting with the two of them with virtually identical pickups though, I stand behind my opinion that the K&K equipped Larrivee OM-03R is superior in tone and responsiveness to the JJB-equipped Martin D-16GT. At the same amp/preamp settings the Larrivee is louder with strong levels across all six strings - especially in the midrange which I have to "cut back". I have to increase the gain on the Martin to counter but it just doesn't seem to come through nearly as "hot". Given that the Martin is also more sensitive to environment and general rough handling (again, mea culpa) I'd say without a doubt that my Larrivee is a superior gigging guitar.

 

BTW, once upon a time I played a Martin OMC-16E Koa which was a nice guitar that was equipped with an Aria dual source (gooseneck/piezo with onboard preamp) and thought that it sounded too "glassy" for my tastes. Again, I'd give the K&K/Larrivee OM combination the nod - even though here I opted NOT to use the preamp with the K&K.

 

[YOUTUBE]n55xXpdpbV8[/YOUTUBE]

 

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I think (yes folks, occasionally I do) that in acoustic that has been electrified, the quality of the guitars wood still makes a difference. In an electric,solid body I think the type of wood is rather meaningless, Just a marketing hype. Then again, I don't know much about electrics at all thank God.

Isn't this the ACOUSTIC forum?

 

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The mag pups are not acoustic sensing, period. They are modelers and will only give you the maker's notion of what that is. But, I can't argue the reason and purpose so choose as your ears will. They range from a c-note to a few hundred.

 

Or, if you want to have something that has a bunch of utility and easy to attach/detach get one of these. I used one for several years on a Guild F-412.

 

Amazon.com: Shadow Electronics SH-2001 Quick Mount Transducer Acoustic Guitar Pickup: Musical Instruments

 

It attaches to the bridge with a chemically inert putty that does not leave a film when removed. You can put it anywhere your best signal response lies for the frequency range you need relative to the music or your tastes.

 

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The mag pups are not acoustic sensing, period. They are modelers and will only give you the maker's notion of what that is. But, I can't argue the reason and purpose so choose as your ears will. They range from a c-note to a few hundred.

 

 

I always thought it interesting that we pay so much attention to the composition of the winding of a guitar string which is not magnetic, then we put a transducer in the sound hole that is only sensitive to the ferrous core of the string. But its easy and it works and a lot of folks seem to like the way its sounds

 

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My bar gigging acoustic is the older Martin 00016 RGT, w/ a cutaway. The pick up system is a Fishman blender system.

 

I just eq the system as I see fit, and the trickle the mic in to taste. I thought the mic might have been some total piece of junk, but my luthier said it was Crown mic that Fishman used.

 

Anyway, now I plug in to a Fishman Spectra DI and that box is pretty damn nice. I didn't care for it for recording, but live it has been the bomb.

 

From there I got to either and acoustic amp ( I have several) or the house system.

 

You folks can do what you want, but I'm very happy with this set up.

 

[video=youtube;58EDI7f4jrM]

 

 

For my mandolin pick up, I use a LR Baggs M Radius ( it's a stick on pick up) and there Venue pre amp.

 

[video=youtube;x1v05llOwBk]

 

 

 

Try it for yourself, and see if it would work for you.

 

I've refined my acoustic tones and my electric tones over decades.

 

 

 

 

 

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. . . Freeman speaks the truth about soundboard transducer microphones like the K&K Pure Western mini and JJB Prestige 330. . . . Both pickups have three transducers which are quasi-permanently installed with superglue to the bridge plate beneath the bridge . . .

Normally I'd agree but the OP specifically said (emphasis added):

Been thinking of getting a pickup for my Martin 00-17 but do not want to install a permanent pickup. . . .

Transducers superglued to the bridge plate are pretty much permanent. A mag pickup with the cord hanging out the soundhole can be removed fairly easily. Same with a stick on transducer like Idunno recommended.

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Microphones - you betcha the guitar matters.

Sure with a good mike but the question was about pickups. Miking a guitar for recording is preferable but for live playing it's not necessarily the best option. If you have tips, please share them. Inquiring minds want to know. (Old tagline from ads for the National Inquirer. ;))

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Then I suggest trying to find a putty or clay as Idunno described then or try out that SBT pickup. By "permanent" I mean to say that the pickup cannot easily be removed without damaging the pickup itself. Some claim to have done that, but superglue (AK CA glue) is essentially a crystalline adhesive that comes in different thicknesses ranging from "thin" (which permeates the pores/between the fibers of the wood) to thick (which doesn't permeate) to a gel (which tskes the longest to set and is what is used in this case.) The transducers essentially become embedded in the glue but the contact with the guitar is not "invasive." Part of why I went with the JJB is beside at $40 it was about half the price of the K&K so if I screwed it up I wouldn't damage the pickup. I never worried about damaging the bridge plate because it's a hard piece of maple, which is a "closed pore" wood. I certainly would t suggest installing one of these on an inexpensive guitar with a spruce bridge plate.

 

It all comes down to this: a lot of people try out SBTs using "temporary" means of affixing them to the bridge plate (such as 2 sided tape or putty) though the contact point may not be complete, reducing the efficiency of the pickup. You would at least get an idea of how the pickup would sound so that you can make a more educated decision on your own.

 

Regardless of what you decide, you have to consider under what circumstances you would be playing the guitar. For example, the SBT route is good for solo instrumental/singer venues but if you need to increase the gain to play along with electric instruments and a drummer it WILL feed back. OTOH, under those circumstances IMO the acoustic guitar becomes more of a percussive instrument. That's because the only thing that comes through (at least to my ears which were desensitized by working around industry and aviation) is the clickety clack of the pick hitting the strings.

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Yup. If you want the guitar to sound the same but louder, get a super-carioid mic.

 

If you just want louder, a soundhole pickup will do that well, requires no guitar modification, and can go from one guitar to another. I've had the same pickup for three guitars in fifteen years, and the pickup cost less than $100 and shows zero signs of wear.

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