Torrified tops

[Phil O'Keefe]

I was just reading an article about them and wondered if they really do help or not. Do any of you have a guitar with a Torrified top? Does it have that "old, aged guitar" sound to it, or is it just marketing hype?

 

Another thing I'm wondering is what the effect will be over the long term. If they are aged when new, how will they age and change over time? Will they continue to sound the same, or will they get better... or worse? Typically when you buy a new guitar with solid wood, you expect it's going to get better as time goes on... but with a guitar with a Torrified top, is it as good as it's ever going to get when it's brand-new?

 

 

[garthman]

. . . . I was just reading an article about them and wondered if they really do help or not. . . .

 

Nah!

 

. . . . Do any of you have a guitar with a Torrified top? Does it have that "old' date=' aged guitar" sound to it, [b']or is it just marketing hype? .[/b] . .

 

As if. Huh!

 

. . . .Another thing I'm wondering is what the effect will be over the long term. If they are aged when new' date=' how will they age and change over time? Will they continue to sound the same, or will they get better... or worse?[b'] Typically when you buy a new guitar with solid wood, you expect it's going to get better as time goes on...[/b] but with a guitar with a Torrified top, is it as good as it's ever going to get when it's brand-new? . .

 

I expect nothing of the sort and none of my experiences over the years have convinced me otherwise. Do people really buy a guitar of a certain sound and then hope it's going to improve? Why would anyone do that - why not buy a guitar that you like in the first place.

 

Did I hear you mention "marketing hype" . . . . ?

[katopp]

After my experience with some Martin HD-35 that came with a wonderful "old sound" from the factory and then turned into mudmonsters, I am terrified by anything that promises the impossible. Fast aging? I don't think so. Not for me. Marketing yadayada to please the first buyer. Nobody knows, how those will do in the long run. Let the more adventurous try their luck...

 

[Freeman Keller]

Torrified tops seem to be all the rage and when you look at the people who are doing it you've got to believe something is going on. I haven't played one (knowingly) and it certainly isn't something that would make or break my buying decision (the sound of a guitar would, not necessarily how it got there).

 

So, does it help - maybe

Do I have one - no

Does it have... sound - I don't know

Is it marketing hype - yes

What is the long term effect - I'll be dead in five or ten years, what difference does it make

Will it get better, worse....yadda yadda - no one buys a new guitar thinking of its vintage potential, we want instant gratification.

 

We used to have a very good luthier who posted here who argued that the reason so many modern guitars sounded so good is that they were underbraced, scalloped to the point of almost failure and simply were not designed to last. Is this part of that trend?

 

Remember the craze for vibrating tops with loud speakers, fish tank filters or that commercial device (ToneRite). Someone gave me a ToneRite - I've never used it. You sure don't hear mush about them anymore.

 

[katopp]

Yes, I can see a lot of my stuff needing constant adjustments. A few - the more robust Binh, the Guild, the Yamaha, the Martin D35, they are rock steady throughout the year. The Martin D40, the deliberately lightly built Binh and the rest need constant fiddling. They are just not stable. I call that being underbuild. Underbuild as much as the tune from D to Db will need some fiddling with the trussrod.

 

Freeman Keller, you are right with the instant gratification. I have maybe 20, 25 years left, but I still do care,

[DeepEnd]

Taylor uses it on the 600 series (https://www.taylorguitars.com/media/taylor-guitars-new-600-series-torrefied-spruce-top) so I'd like to think there's something to it but--well--nah. There was hype a while back about Tonerite but I don't believe that either. I'm in the same boat with garthman, in that I'm inclined to doubt whether it's real or not. I think old Martins sound the way they do because they're old Martins and not wine or cheese.

[onelife]

I recently read about Yamaha's line of A.R.E. (Acoustic Resonance Enhancement) - which they claim is 'an original wood reforming technology developed by Yamaha' - so, when I had the opportunity, I checked one out. I was so impressed, I bought the guitar after playing it in the shop for about three hours.

 

The one I got is the bottom of the line LL16 and it sounds great. Good clear full range sound and easy to play with a robust feel. I don't know if it sounds 'old' but whatever it is they did, it certainly seems to work. The guitar comes with a passive under saddle transducer which sounded really good through the shop's Fishman Acoustic Guitar Amplifier (a Loudbox Mini IIRC).

 

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/guitars-basses/ac-guitars/l/ll16_are/

[Idunno]

Dana Bourgeois is hip deep in the R&D of torrefication and can bring some current info on it. But, from what he's described, it all sounds like witch's brew to me. The concept is to bring the wood to a point of vintage aging by roasting it (quite literally) in a particular way, yada yada, until it has a certain timbre and then building with it. Right-o. Goal? The obvious. Vintage tone in new construction means vintage provenance gives up some of its appeal to him and others building with it. Mo Money, Mo Money...

 

In the guitar world, vintage anything gets some attention. To me, it's all junk. I met a guy who had two 1930-something Gibson L-somethings with successive serial numbers and spoke with an air of distinction because of it. It was at a gathering and everyone was obliging the dude with fine comments and props even though the guitars looked and sounded awful. Regardless, they were vintage and therefore commanded the obligatory praise that convention elicits. Totally lost on me, though.

 

Here's the big question, though: Who the hell is an authority on vintage tone? No two guitars sound alike, including the vintage junk, so who is establishing what sound and claiming it a vintage standard to torrefy wood to? No one will ever be an authority because no standard can be established. The whole of the vintage sound is pure blather. The entire pre-war nuance is making up crap, talking about it loud, often and frequently enough to become doctrine, and then foisting that doctrine as a truth to the feeble minded with fat and loose wallets who will defend such fiction lest they embarrass themselves.

[onelife]

A friend of mine showed up at my house a few years a go with an all original 1954 Stratocaster. I asked him what was the big deal about the old ones. He just handed me the guitar and let me play it. After playing it (and having owned a several post 1970 strats) I realized the '54 was definitely a better sounding instrument and I understood the appeal to players. Unfortunately the guitars' appeal to collectors put it way out of my reach financially.

[Mikeo]

I think the whole torrified thing is kind of a gimmick. As good luthier cuts, sands, glues, and builds basically lumber to a finished product, kinda know what they are looking for out particular piece of wood.

 

Over time and especially the first 6 months to a year or so, it's the stress on the woods, and the vibrations that seasons up an instrument. I was also told that some where along the way the wood used must realizes it's no longer just a tree and is now a musical instrument. The energies emitted are changed as you play the instrument.

 

Kinda weird, but I accepted that.

 

I once was at a local shop and there was a bunch of old timers testing out a couple of old Martin dreadnoughts. They ask me what thought and I kinda like the one the guitar player didn't. It wasn't as mellow in the top end and the bass frequencies has a nicer pop to it.

 

I think if you take a new guitar, take it home and stick under the bed for 40 years. Then hand it to grand children some 40 years later, you'll still have a relatively new sound instrument.

 

 

There was a local gal that played violin, and purchased a newer instrument from Douglas Cox, who is out of Vermont. You get a trial period when you spend that kind of money on a fiddle. She was gonna bring back her fiddle back and get another one, but I heard something very unique and kind of special in the one she had. I think she took my suggestion and ended up that fiddle.

 

Douglas Cox work is really nice.

 

It should be nice work, cause some of his instruments go for more money than what I spent on my wife's new car.

 

http://www.coxviolins.com/index.html

 

and you thought guitars got expensive, over the decades.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Grant Harding]

I've never tried a torrified top, much less enough of them to speak like an expert about them.

 

I'll take the sage advice that (like everything else new) this is definitely just lies and propaganda and they don't make them like they used to and get off my lawn.

[Grant Harding]

They sound incredible! I seem to remember the ARE getting trashed here as a gimmick.

[garthman]

That would be due to the old PUs.

[Neal]

You cynical bastids! It might could be that this "torrefication"(sp?) process IS the suitcase full 'o monkeys as advertised, but as said, it adds cost, just like that binding, wedge, and side soundhole lots of us pay a bit more for. One could argue that those have actual function in some cases, of course, but many times it's just because we like it.

 

But in any industry, you have to keep the momentum building, and first adopters are the people that can afford to pay the price or wait in line to be our guinea-pigs to see if it's a real thing. Google Glasses, iPhones, Segway...some flesh out, some don't.

 

I imagine folks back in the catgut/wood tuner era were having this same conversation about steel strings and geared tuners.

 

But...erm..I'm a tad cynical as well, but I'm not a first adopter type anyway, god bless 'em.

[Grant Harding]

I've never seen a controlled scientific experiment that proves steel strings sound different to cat gut, so you can waste your money on new fangled nonsense. I'm just gonna play music.

[garthman]

I've never seen a controlled scientific experiment that proves steel strings sound different to cat gut' date=' so you can waste your money on new fangled nonsense. [b']I'm just gonna play music[/b].

 

 

Oh aye.

[Idunno]

Cat gut science? Hairballs.

 

Yeppers, science is always bribed to bring the irrefutable side of marketing to the sheeple. Play music is the correct answer.

[Glenn F]

I keep wondering what the sharpest marketing knives in the drawer will come up with next. Idunno nailed it, though. How do you define, detect, measure 'vintage,' and then reproduce it?

 

Hooey.

[recordingtrack1]

I have a Yamaha LS-16. I (think) it is made with torrified wood all around, not just the top. I am not proclaiming that to be the case as if I am certain, or an expert on the matter. I am not. But, I believe I read that in the documentation that came with it.

 

This instrument sounds very good and from all indications, it is no different than my other acoustic guitars, with one notable exception. I does NOT have that wonderful Rosewood smell. You can barely get a whiff of it and this guitar is a 2015 model that I bought brand new.

 

Now, I realize that is a petty thing, looking at the big picture. But, I love the smell of Rosewood in the morning. It smells like.....VICTORY!

[Neal]

Ahh, first adopter. We thank you. If it doesn't implode from the torrefication within 20 or so years, and sounds even better, we'll have the definitive answer for future generations.

 

But first we'd like to ask you to assemble an on-going journal, for science of course. The first years we'd ask you to measure the sound at regular intervals, say..every 2 weeks, using our state-of-the-art oscilloscope/Snark recording device to measure the sound wave of a 'G' chord, this is a 10 year commitment. At year 11 we'll ask you to not humidify or in any way maintain the instrument except to wipe off drool and beer. Record your findings after year 14. At year 22, assuming you are still alive, you will receive 2 sets of D'addario strings, bronze, your choice of gauge. Phosphor bronze for a slight upcharge, and THANK YOU for being a part of this test.

[kwakatak]

Half baked guitar tops. I wonder if a torrified cedar top would be aromatically pleasing? My closet experience to experiencing that involved a perfectly cooked filet of salmon.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I have a Yamaha LS-16. I (think) it is made with torrified wood all around, not just the top. I am not proclaiming that to be the case as if I am certain, or an expert on the matter. I am not. But, I believe I read that in the documentation that came with it.

 

This instrument sounds very good and from all indications, it is no different than my other acoustic guitars, with one notable exception. I does NOT have that wonderful Rosewood smell. You can barely get a whiff of it and this guitar is a 2015 model that I bought brand new.

 

Now, I realize that is a petty thing, looking at the big picture. But, I love the smell of Rosewood in the morning. It smells like.....VICTORY!

 

 

I would love it if someone came out with an air freshener in three specific scents:

 

New acoustic guitar smell

 

Tape oxide (the smell you get when you break open the bag on a brand new 2" reel of GP9 tape)

 

Bacon. Because bacon.

[Phil O'Keefe]

[katopp]

Tape Oxyde? Like instant 3m?

What about canned Revox?

[Phil O'Keefe]

Tape Oxyde? Like instant 3m?

What about canned Revox?

 

3M used to make magnetic recording tape too - 996 was my favorite of their formulations. Low noise and you could slam the heck out of it without it breaking up. The smell tape gives off is just a bonus, and one that even many engineers today are unfamiliar with... but when you first put a reel on and "exercised it" by running it through the transport fast both ways (which gets rid of any lose oxide that would otherwise shed, taking part of your recording with it), it gives off a really interesting smell... it's just one of those olfactory-triggered memory things for me I guess.