Gretsch G9500 Jim Dandy Setup

[AZMLII]

I have a Gretsch G9500 Jim Dandy I bought last fall. I find that it's difficult to get in tune, and doesn't stay in tune well.

 

I used some Planet Waves LubriKit Friction Remover to lube the slots at the nut and the contact points at the saddle. This hasn't really helped much.

 

Do you think a professional set-up would help?

 

I'm hard pressed to spend $82 on a setup for a $150 guitar.

 

Thanks,

Patrick

 

[DeepEnd]

First, are you keeping the guitar properly humidified? As the humidity changes, the geometry of the guitar changes too. Better tuners and strings might help. If the action is especially high or there's too much relief in the neck, it can throw the intonation off. Same thing if you're pressing too hard on the strings. If you're handy, we can talk you through a setup but get the guitar properly humidified first.

[Freeman Keller]

Patrick, when you say "its difficult to get in tune" - what does that mean? Are the tuners hard to turn? Does the string make a popping sound as you are bringing it up to tune? One string or all? Do you break strings?

 

When you say it "doesn't stay in tune" what does that mean? Does it go flat, sharp? One string or all? Are you keeping it in some sort of case or gig bag? Do you have a humidifier in the case or gig bag? What gauge strings are you using? Have you changed them recently? If so, did the old ones and new ones do the same thing? If you replaced strings do you know how to make sure the balls of the strings are properly seated against the bridge plate?

 

Does the action feel really high and hard to play, if so where (nut end, middle of the fretboard, near the body)? Are you comfortable making some measurements for us using a good little rule and feeler gauges?

 

I'll add that personally I don't think these nut lubricants are necessary if the nut slots are well made and the proper size for your strings, but I know that lots of people use them (or something)

[DeepEnd]

. . . If you replaced strings do you know how to make sure the balls of the strings are properly seated against the bridge plate? . . .

Freeman, the G9500 has a pinless bridge. Here's a pic of one. You'll also note that the saddle has minimal compensation so the guitar probably has poor intonation:

 

[Freeman Keller]

OK, rub that out. I remember seeing pictures of this thing but forgot that it had that funky bridge.

 

You know, when I squint at that picture it actually looks like it has some E-B-G string compensation in the saddle - not much but might be enough to work with the short scale. And the OP didn't complain about intonation, only tuning.

[DeepEnd]

True but I have a Jay Turser Jay Jr. beater that I picked up cheap on CraigsList and it has very poor intonation. When I play a chord, it sounds like it's out of tune because it's only in tune at the nut.

[Freeman Keller]

Quickest way to check that would be to have Patrick carefully measure from the nut to the 12th fret and from the nut to both sides of the saddle where the E strings break over it. The latter measurements should be 2 times the first plus about 1/16 on the high E and 2-3/16 on the low E.

 

Interestingly, if you measure some of the saddle locations on Martins from the 1970's you'll find they are in the wrong location. People who mostly play first position cowboy chords seldom notice, its only when you play up the fretboard.

 

I still want to hear the answers to my other questions....

[AZMLII]

First off, thank you for your quick and informative responses.

 

I will do my best to answer your questions.

 

When I say the guitar is difficult to tune I mean, that the tuners are hard to turn. Particularly the ones for the 5th and 6th strings. I think this because the 5th string rubs against the 6th string on the post. Also I do my best to make small adjustments when tuning, but I invariably go from flat to sharp and have to go down and work my way up again. Particularly with the bass strings.

 

I payed careful attention today and once I got it in tune it doesn't seem to be going out of tune. It's just a pain getting it in tune.

 

Also the guitar isn't intonated very well. It is sharp on all strings at the 12th fret, and particularly so on the 6th string. From what I can see the neck is strait and the strings don't seem high to me, but I haven't measured them. The distance from the nut to the 12th fret is 12 inches on both the low and high E sides. Which make sense since the guitar is supposed to have a 24" scale length. The distance from the nut to where the string contacts the saddle is 24 1/32 inches for the high E and 24 3/32 inches for the low E. The nut is compensated.

 

The guitar came with light strings (.012-.032) or that's what the specs say. I changed to extra-light strings (.010-.047). I went lighter because I hoped it would reduce the friction between the 5th string and the 6th on the post, which was causing one to alter the tuning of the other when I was tuning it. This really hasn't helped all that much. I also tried flat top extra-light strings and switching back to lights but that didn't really help much either.

 

The problems have gotten progressively worse since I bought the guitar last Nov, or I'm noticing them.

 

I last changed the strings about a week ago.

 

I'm not breaking strings.

 

I store the guitar in an Gator economy gig bag. I don't humidify the guitar. I didn't think I needed to, since the guitar is all laminate.

 

I'm not expecting miracles from a $169.00 guitar, but I would like to be able to play basic chords (G, Dmin, C etc) in tune.

 

Also, in full disclosure I'm a beginner getting back into learning guitar after a 7 year break.

 

Thanks,

Patrick

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DeepEnd]

Okay, I see what you mean about the strings rubbing:

 

 

Blueridge guitars (at least some) have the same issue. I don't think it has anything to do with the tuners being hard to turn though. Try a dab of oil or graphite on the gears and see if that helps. You can always replace the existing tuners but the problem there is that you can easily spend $30-40 or more on a fairly "cheap" set.

BTW, all guitars need to be humidified as long as they're made of wood. It doesn't matter whether the wood is laminated or not. Get it humidified first thing.

[Freeman Keller]

Thanks for all the feedback, that helps. That is a terrible headstock design but there isn't much you can do about it. I'm curious whether the tuners turn freely when the string isn't rubbing the post - if so its pretty much the fault of the string but if they are hard to turn anyway it might be worth replacing them, but that's hard to justify too.

 

From your measurements it does have a little bit of compensation but sounds like not enough. Again, not much you can do about it - I have filled the saddle slots on some bridges and routed a new slot but you aren't going to want to do that on an inexpensive guitar. Lowering the action will reduce the amount the strings go sharp (they don't stretch as much).

 

I also understand what you are trying to do with the lighter strings and the interference at the post but 10's seem awfully light to me for an acoustic.

 

I don't know about other setup guys but when a guitar comes into my shop I give it a complete going over, taking all the measurements and give the owner a complete evaluation of what I think it needs before I do any work. I don't charge for that, it takes me 10 or 15 minutes and it becomes the starting point for our discussion on what to do. I agree that its probably not worth putting a whole lot of money into it and its frustrating that a new guitar has problems like this, but on the other hand its possible that by working with a professional you can make a good player out of it.

[DeepEnd]

There are a couple of things you can try on your own. You can see that the existing tuners have screws in the middle of the gears:

 

 

Take a Phillips screwdriver and slightly loosen the screws. Also put a dab of oil or graphite on the gears. That may be all you need to do.

And as Freeman said, 10's are pretty light for an acoustic. It takes a certain amount of string tension to drive the top properly and short scale guitars have inherently less tension anyway from the shorter strings. Please measure the action (the height of the strings) and report back. Measure at the 12th fret without pressing down on the string. There should be about 3/32" from the top of the fret to the string on the bass side and about 1/16" on the treble side. If there's substantially more clearance than that, your guitar could benefit from a setup. As Freeman said, among other things, the intonation will improve and the guitar will be easier to play.

[AZMLII]

Ok, I measured the distance between the top of the 12th fret and the bottom of the 6th and 1st strings. It's 2/32" on the bass side and 1/16" on the treble side. So it looks like the action is at a good height.

 

When I last changed the strings. I put a drop of mineral oil on each tuner gear and turned the worm several times to spread it. It was difficult to turn. Maybe the next time I change strings I will unscrew the gear and use a little light grease on all the bearing surfaces and see if that helps.

 

I'll get a humidifier for it.

 

For now I guess I'll just live with the guitar as it is.

 

I know a very good luthier. If it keeps bothering me, I'll go visit him. He would look it over for free and let me know what it needs, how much it would cost and if it's worth it. I just don't want to drive up there and waste his time if I'm not seriously going to get work done.

 

Thanks everyone for your help.

 

- Patrick

[Freeman Keller]

2/32 (which is 1/16) is darn low action - you should have minimal intonation issues with that (and the 1 - 3/32 of compensation that your bridge has). I'm curious how many cents each string goes sharp when you fret them.

 

Cheap tuners are, well, cheap tuners. When you stop an think about a guitar with a $150 street price, the dealer's cost is about half that. So 75 bucks you've got to build a guitar - all the materials, labor, finish and shipping it to that dealer. That means that the tuners didn't cost Gretsch much to start with. It might be worth while to change them - unfortunately most inexpensive tuners are in the 30 or so dollar range. You could give these a shot

 

http://www.stewmac.com/Hardware_and_Parts/Tuning_Machines/Solid_Peghead_Guitar_Tuning_Machines/Economy_3-on-Plate_Tuners.html

 

but carefully check all of the specs against your guitar - the little screws rarely line up but you want everything else to be compatible.

 

Good luck, keep us posted.

[AZMLII]

I used my Boss TU-80 (which displays +-50 cent with dots at each 10 cents) to tune each string. Then I played each at the 12th fret and this is what I got approximately, E +21, A +9, D +0, G +0, B +1, E +0.

 

Freeman, the tuners on my guitar look similar to the ones you linked to on Stewmac. I attached a photo.

 

I beginning to think I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

Thanks,

Patrick

[AZMLII]

I used my Boss TU-80 (which displays +-50 cent with dots at each 10 cents) to tune each string. Then I played each at the 12th fret and this is what I got approximately, E +21, A +9, D +0, G +0, B +1, E +0.

 

Freeman, the tuners on my guitar look similar to the ones you linked to on Stewmac. I attached a photo.

 

I beginning to think I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill.

 

Thanks,

Patrick

 

On second thought while similar the tuners are different.

 

[DeepEnd]

They're similar enough that it probably won't make much difference. Your luthier friend may have a spare set and be able to replace the existing tuners or he may be able to get the existing ones loosened up. I don't think you're "making a mountain out of a mole hill." I'd want a guitar with tuners that worked properly too. As Freeman said, the action on your guitar is a bit low if anything. The intonation looks okay for the first four strings. Your luthier friend may be able to replace the saddle with something with a bit more compensation on the 5th and 6th strings but, honestly, in the long run you may want to start saving for another guitar.

[AZMLII]

They're similar enough that it probably won't make much difference. Your luthier friend may have a spare set and be able to replace the existing tuners or he may be able to get the existing ones loosened up. I don't think you're "making a mountain out of a mole hill." I'd want a guitar with tuners that worked properly too. As Freeman said' date=' the action on your guitar is a bit low if anything. The intonation looks okay for the first four strings. Your luthier friend may be able to replace the saddle with something with a bit more compensation on the 5th and 6th strings but, honestly, in the long run you may want to start saving for another guitar.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I was thinking that I should save my money for another guitar. My wife say's I have to wait 6 months and keep practicing, and I can get a another guitar. I'm wishing I had took a better look at the Yamaha FS guitars.

 

[DeepEnd]

Yamaha makes a very good guitar. I also checked your profile and found a few music stores in your area. Rockin' Bob's has a Recording King RPH-05 that's similar to your Gretsch: http://www.rockinbobsguitars.com/#!product/prd1/3726160811/recording-king-rph-05. It also has the advantage of a solid top. I haven't played one but it could be worth a look.

[AZMLII]

Thanks DeepEnd.

 

I need to update my profile, I moved to Maynard MA 4 years ago. My local is now Minor Chord in Littleton, MA. They have Yamaha and Recording King, Seagull, Martin, Taylor etc. I tried out a Yamaha FS800. I'll try out a Recording King after my next lesson.

[Freeman Keller]

Looking at the saddle and your measurement of 1/32 on the high E that doesn't surprise me. They say the human ear can hear 5 cents so really four of your strings are spot on. A bit more compensation on the 5th and 6th, going back to 12's and a new set of tuners might make a world of difference.

 

Before you buy any tuners measure everything carefully using calipers or a micrometer. Ideally you don't want to change the bushings if you don't have to and you want both post diameter and spacing to be exactly the same. StewMac gives their specs, just compare yours.

[AZMLII]

Freeman;

 

Is the reason for going back to 12s to add more tension on the top and raise the action a bit?

 

Thanks,

Patrick

[ducfat]

Had mine for a couple years. Good couch/camp beater to keep your fingers in shape. Intonation definite issue, replaced nut and saddle with Tusq, but will do again at next string change as I had to do a lot of filing to fit in the saddle slot and not happy with result. Don't have that problem with the low strings rubbing at the tuners, though it's close. Have you tried reversing the winding of the low E so that it rolls off the outside of the post? You'll still have the same downward break angle, but will pull about 3/16" more towards the outward side of the guitar.

[DeepEnd]

Welcome to the Forum and thanks for weighing in but the last post in this thread was five months ago. The OP has probably solved the problem, learned to live with it, or bought a new guitar by now.

[ducfat]

No worries. Just thought I'd throw the reverse winding in there in case someone else is having issues.