Forum Experience

[Idunno]

That's what's wrong with this place. It knows too much on the topic. There's nothing to discuss anymore. I see on other forums the questions this place fielded and flamed out many years ago. If we were to have some new member post a serious poll on "Your favorite bridge pin material" I'm not sure anyone here would take it seriously, much less bother to answer it.

 

Hence the near-zero participation here. And, after all those info-swapping years that eventually leveled the field in general topic knowledge, none of it inspired people to take playing to heart. Evidence the VOM1T apathy.

 

So, why are we here? Old habits? Wishful thinking? Waiting for me or someone else to act inappropriately for the giggles of it? The new management isn't supportive of off-topic banter or the shenanigans of the past. They want us to be their happy one-stop acoustic guitar info dissemination and discussion center and dispense with the off-topic escapades. That we've done and it's now such a hoot we're all too giddy to meaningfully post.

 

Well, how's about a nice game of Thermonuclear Warfare?

 

Let's talk the merits of complete replacement of naturally occurring materials with man-made sustainability in acoustic guitars. There's a new, yet oh so repugnant on-topic foray into the characteristics of composites and their acoustic sound properties no one here has openly divulged, to my knowledge. And, because there isn't any sonic references we can use to compare and/or describe the merits of composite materials to, we shun their discussion. Admittedly, discussion will probably remain unapproachable because of that but let's get real; with every new guitar of naturally occurring material I get a little wince. I can't be alone.

 

Also, atmospheric impact on wood species has been a confounder of sound produced from my guitars unless I stay on top of it like white on rice. A few points north in the RH and I get mud. A few points south and I'm probably looking at a fret buzz (very low action). If you keep your action an appreciable distance above the fret wires then you're good to go. But, I bought a particular sound that I liked and it's a slave to the humidity. A composite guitar is not sensitive as such.

 

I have the pleasure of having played some Rainsongs recently. Impressive...most impressive. Nothing about them struck me as familiar sounding relative to my experience with tonewood(s) but that's not an issue with me. Is the sound pleasant? Yes. Does it have to sound like RW or Maple or Cedar or Redwood or Myrtlewood or Mahogany, etc? No, it doesn't. Do I have to like the sound? Yes. This is where I find myself now. I do not have to have a wood guitar to produce a nice acoustic sound. I have dropped my previous high-brow opinion of the use of man-made materials. My only exception is Ovation. I still defer them to people who like them.

 

On the other material of so-called HPL, I keep a thin-bodied Martin that has the all HPL black body with the stratabond (SP?) neck at work for grins when I arrive before or hang past normal work hours. I play that thing plugged because the body is too thin to produce the lower freqs of a sufficient depth to give a nice balance. But, the company owner keeps his Martin dread there with the same (wood grain) body and a poor quality spruce top (IMO) and same neck. It sounds pretty good unplugged. In any case, I can create adequate noise with HPL as well.

 

What say any of you? Any experience with composites that might be worth a discussion relative to replacing wood use?

[Freeman Keller]

Hoyt, old buddy, there are a couple of things going on here. First, I haven't totally given up on this place but its pretty tempting. The problem is, I haven't seen anything that I like better and I'm comfortable here. So I'll stay and post a few things that I think are on topic and hope for the best.

 

Second, as to what is killing HC, I don't know that either. People talk about all the software issues, I've seen that at some other forums too. Is HC over moderated? - There are sure a couple of places that the admins are much tougher - I really think we have a pretty good balance here (and good mods, I like the way they handle things). We lost a lot of the old guard - some passed on, some moved on, some just went away - I miss a lot of them. Every now and then one wanders by - I wish they would stay and contribute like the past.

 

I think we did scare away a few of the new folks - people who unearthed old threads got pretty well reamed, some folks asked questions that we thought were beat to a pulp. I can understand why some of them didn't stay. Unfortunately I don't know how to get the new people to both come here and check us out and to stay when they do.

 

Now to sustainable tone woods, composites and the future of the acoustic guitar. I'm a traditionalist but I'm all for the changes. I'm building guitars right now out of Brazilian and Madagascar rosewoods - I thought I would never do that. But I also just went thru several days of paperwork getting a guitar ready to ship to Europe - certifying that the wood and shell and everything else is sustainable and legal. Its a hassle but I believe in it - I'm a wood slut but I also love the trees that make the wood.

 

I've got composite materials in a bunch of my other toys - bikes and kayaks and skis, but I really haven't played a composite guitar that said "take me home". A friend left his Rainsong at my house for a few days - yeah, if I lived on a boat or wanted a camp guitar it would be fine, but to my old ears there isn't anything that sounds like wood.

 

Anyway, I mostly agree with you and when I don't I respect you for what you think and say. The world of acoustic guitars is big and full of wonderful things to talk about and to play. I'll continue to be a part of this little community until it or I pass completely from this earth. Meanwhile, lets jam a little - key of A, one and two and...

[DeepEnd]

. . . I think we did scare away a few of the new folks - people who unearthed old threads got pretty well reamed' date=' . . .[/quote']

From my perspective, people who unearthed old threads received a polite suggestion that it might be better to start a new thread. At least one got a huge chip on his shoulder at that point and stayed around only to argue. The worst were a couple of the existing members who decided to attack other existing members. That certainly didn't create a warm, welcoming atmosphere, and if I weren't already a member I probably wouldn't have bothered staying.

As for the wood vs. synthetic debate, man made materials aren't exactly benign to the environment or to people who have to work with them. Plus, I simply love the look of wood, and I think it sounds nice.

[Grant Harding]

I have absolutely no doubt that acoustically tuned composite materials will surpass wood instruments. Being able to precisely control several physical properties in different parts of the box will enable some cool stuff. The base material really should have the complex sweetness that I think comes from subtle variations in the wood. That can be engineered intro the composite while exploiting the ever increasing strength to weight ratio of modern materials.

[garthman]

I'm an atheist.

[t_e_l_e]

i do not have experience with composite materials, altough i could test an ovation in a shop, but it sound weak and not full acoustically. and i was in search of a guitar which sounds great unplugged...

 

 

..other thant that with the forum and so on, i'm about to have 11 guitars, i have various different tube amplifiers i have around 20 to 30 efx boxes, i do some recording and mixing from time to time.

i'm stuffed with gear nad happy with what i have, so discussing any new released stuff is not in my interest anymore, i'm not in the search. and if i am, i collected so much knowledge the past 10+ here and everywhere else that i do not need to ask anymore. and i'm bored answering the same old questions like "which power supply do i need to power...", "which distortion pedal is best with...", "which accoustic will help me shine in situations like..."

 

i try to help, but i'm not so interested anymore as in the times of unlimited gas and trying everything for the first time out...

not sure if a lot of others are bored aswell

[kwakatak]

I've come to the opinion that people will write anything here just to keep the lights on but even If they're here they've checked out on the reason why they came here in the first place. I still check in from time to time but when people start coming across like they're trying to chase the kids off their lawn I just move on. It's a shame because we used to have such good times.

[Mikeo]

Believe me, other music forums ain't doing all that great with activity.

 

 

At the height of HC, the forums were as much about non musical social discussion, as they were about musical gear. The thing is many could not see past that.

 

 

 

[Mikeo]

There's a guy I know that lives a few towns over and he has a couple of composite guitars. I had a chance to play the Rain Song and one made by a company called CA.

 

My first reaction was, wow they are loud, and they were heavy.There was not all that much warmth to them. The thing is, once you plug an acoustic guitar in, it a whole different game.It not longer about the sound of the acoustic, it's more about how the electronics react to what sensor system pick up system it's attached to.

 

 

 

 

[EdBega]

Right now seems like too few people to keep it interesting though in the past when more were posting half the people were trying and succeeding in getting someone else goat which didn't help.

 

Only played one carbon fiber but it sounded rich, clean (not muddy) and very much alive to me. I would be interested in purchasing a lower end model if I could find one with a neck fat enough which wasn't to be found six months or a year ago when I was interested.

[DeepEnd]

I've come to the opinion that people will write anything here just to keep the lights on but even If they're here they've checked out on the reason why they came here in the first place. I still check in from time to time but when people start coming across like they're trying to chase the kids off their lawn I just move on. It's a shame because we used to have such good times.

I originally came seeking advice on a new nut for my Ibanez acoustic. My choices were brass, TUSQ, and graphite. The overwhelming response was "spend a small fortune having a nut custom made from bone, or spend even more on a set of nut files and do it yourself," which told me I was in the wrong place because nobody had bothered to read the question. (BTW, I eventually installed a TUSQ nut that works just fine, thank you.) I stayed because I felt I had something to offer and subsequently got politely chastised when I suggested that break angle over the saddle might not be as critical as previously thought. I stick around to fight the good fight and maybe offer help when I can.

[FretFiend.]

...break angle over the saddle might not be as critical as previously thought...

 

There's something to argue about.

[panhandler]

I come here out of habit. Is the head dead yet?

 

I have owned a Composite Acoustics Cargo. Great little guitar. I only returned it because it was not the sound I was looking for at the time. Had big sound like a dread.

 

I would like to add a carbon fiber back into the fold. Something GA or 000ish.

[Grant Harding]

I aim for an acute break angle. Tough to pull off, but toan for dayz.

[Emory]

What might be interesting with composites might have to do with thickness of walls of body. By that I mean I wonder how varying thickness might improve tone, but imagine would need some super computer just to get some sort of ball park idea of just what that might do, if anything... Hmmm how about a composite neck on wooden body? That composite with hollow neck and sound hole at headstock sounded intriguing...

[EdBega]

What might be interesting with composites might have to do with thickness of walls of body. By that I mean I wonder how varying thickness might improve tone' date=' but imagine would need some super computer just to get some sort of ball park idea of just what that might do, if anything... Hmmm how about a composite neck on wooden body? That composite with hollow neck and sound hole at headstock sounded intriguing...[/quote']

 

Yeah ..the one I played was very bright with a bell tone.

 

I'd be curious to see if different strings had as dramatic of an affect on the tone as it does with wood.

[DeepEnd]

An acute angle is nice in theory but typically I see maybe 30°. On a 12-string, at least one course of strings will be lucky to have 15°. There are some bridge designs that make a sharper angle possible but not all. And, of course, a taller saddle means higher action.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I've yet to smell a synthetic guitar that had that nice, woody, new guitar smell.

 

I've only tried a few (besides Ovations, of which I've owned several) - a Martin with a synthetic back, a couple of Rainsongs - and based on that relatively small and narrow sample, I wasn't that impressed. They're sustainable and durable, but there's still something missing - or at least different enough about their sound that I still find the sound of wood guitars preferable. YMMV.

 

 

[katopp]

Well, good wood won't be available forever. We've already killed off Rosewood and if it weren't for Bob Taylor, Ebony would be history now, too. Synthetic materials are the way to go. We're meddling with Lyracord plastics for half an eternity now and we still haven't agreed if it works, or not..

Me, personally, I see the need for alternatives and I do support them where possible. I've tried Rainsongs, CA Cargo, Avalon and - of course - Martin's approaches to that and I have to say I like most of them. Martin is doing well with Stratabond necks, impressive stuff that.

HPL for bodies ain't too bad, but I don't like the sound of it, if you move your hand or scratch your nails across.

Rainsongs and Avalons are my fav composite guitars. Sure, they sound differently, but not bad. I've found CA Cargos a bit lifeless, but Rainsongs and Avalons have had a very piano-like qulity that I liked.

 

And yes, we have discussed everything. Everything has been said already, but maybe not by everyone. We will achieve that, too.

 

What makes me wonder is that the electric guitar forums seems to be much more active... why?

[DeepEnd]

. . . Rainsongs and Avalons are my fav composite guitars. . . .

Avalon? AFAIK, Avalon doesn't make guitars from synthetics. What model did you try?

[katopp]

Avalon? AFAIK, Avalon doesn't make guitars from synthetics. What model did you try?

 

My Bad. Emerald. Not Avalon. I was just discussing Irish guitwr builders with a friend and I managed to mess up the names...

[Etienne Rambert]

...break angle over the saddle might not be as critical as previously thought...

 

There's something to argue about.

 

I agree. Not only that, I saw a a youngish Japanese tennis player leap 10 feet into the air to return a serve..I concluded she was from another planet. It seemed reasonable under the circumstances.

 

Then went to an all-star concert/fashion show.

 

I have absolutely no doubt that acoustically tuned composite materials will surpass wood instruments. Being able to precisely control several physical properties in different parts of the box will enable some cool stuff. The base material really should have the complex sweetness that I think comes from subtle variations in the wood. That can be engineered intro the composite while exploiting the ever increasing strength to weight ratio of modern materials.

 

I think so. I wonder why CA or Rainsong aren't making acoustics with real electric guitar features like P90''s, humbuckers, vibratos - a real dual purpose instrument - deep-body sound hole acoustic and real electric. No piezo crap. MIDI interface too - but still pure acoustic.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Well' date=' good wood won't be available forever. [/quote']

 

If the world switches to sustainable use practices and replanting, I don't see why not.

 

What makes me wonder is that the electric guitar forums seems to be much more active... why?

 

The people who frequent that forum seem to post more. I'm not really sure why either.

[Mikeo]

 

If the world switches to sustainable use practices and replanting, I don't see why not.

 

 

 

The people who frequent that forum seem to post more. I'm not really sure why either.

 

That will be the key to the longevity of woods that are used some 70 years from now or even 150 years from now.

 

Environmental management and forestry conservation, I how the major manufactures are already making plans for this.

 

The problem with this is we don't take care of the forests very well. Over the last 70 years the Smokey the Bear campaign has said put out all fires. What has happened is the under growth has become thick, so when you get a fire, you lose 10's of thousands of acres of land. We have seen this in the drought condition over the decades in the NW and California.

 

More people need to be hire, not to just put out fires, but to clean the under brush that allows these fire to take hold in a major way.

 

This is want you want

 

not so much this.

 

 

 

On composite guitars, the don't sound very pretty, however they are loud. They also tend to be heavy., I know a guy that has a few and had the chance to strum a few chords on several of them. They are not so great and rather pricey too.Since he's retired and did very well in the insurance biz, he can afford pretty much anything he wants.

 

Me, I'm still a working stiff, and although I do ok, my instrument budget is usually limited to one nice piece every year. After 40 years of playing I have a decent collection of wood and many tones to choose from.

 

With a population of 7.3 billion on the planet, we need to make some serious choices on the future generations. How do they want to live, where do they want to live. They say it will be 8 billion by 2024.

 

 

Like I have said before, most of the music forums don't have the traffic they once did, especially HC. I think everything that can be discussed about music, instruments, amps, recording and more, pretty much has. One of the beautiful weird things that used to happen is in between some silliness on the Open Jam, or Cool jam, there was some actual discussion about music and gear. Yes, inbetween the crazy times real talk happened, but I don't think the MF or Gibson actually saw that. MF and Gibson wanted a place to show case new goods and maybe generate more sales. There's no money in used gear, as manufacturing goes. The younger crowd wanted affordable instruments, and dosen't have 3-4 grand to drop down on an instrument. Many folks left, for other pastures, With the several changes that were made here and software wasn't working, maybe it was a good time for them to exit. Maybe, It was a one time shot, in a ways, and then again maybe not. Some folks may remember when downtown Main Street on a Saturday night was the place to be. Then the the malls came, and folks and the next generation found new turf.

 

I'm not sure if Gibson wants to bring the masses back, as it was a full time gig for some just managing to masses. We are also looking a new generation that probably less diversity in music than any generation yet. Musical instruments are competing with video gamers for dollars. It would be really nice if the management, manufacturing engineers, luthiers, and factory folks could all sit down and figure out how to build an American made guitar for the cost of an Xbox.I think it could be done. You might not make a lot of money in the beginning, but down the road you can sell those folks a couple 3 grand Les Pauls, or other guitar, or 30-40 guitars like they sold me.

 

Toss in some free DVD/ Blu Ray lesson too. Everyone can't be a gangstra rapper.

 

Just my 2 cents and more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bigald18]

Well folks, here's my worthless take on the forum. People have died, people have gotten older and sickly making it hard for them to play, people have been isolated by nastiness at times, people have given up the guitar, software problems have created problems, corporate ownership has weakened the forum on occasion, and some have actually gone back to work so they don't have time for this anymore. You can't BLAME anything on any one thing in particular and if the forum would stop looking for a scapegoat and go back to music and acoustic guitar playing and making I'm sure participation would again increase.

 

Bigal