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High action on the new Takamine P3NC


lohaic

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I've recently received a new Takamine P3NC from an online store and it has quite some high action set for my standards (4mm at low E at 12th). This makes it not really a playable guitar for me. I've also tried the Taylor 114ce with the action height about 2.1mm and it was very playful compared to Takamine (which on the other hand sounds much better to me so I would prefer to keep it if action is fixable). Do you think it can go as low with the action height as e.g. 2.1mm (I will not try as I want to keep the option to return the guitar). I understand that each guitar is different but is 2.1-2.5 commonly "achievable"? Is there perhaps someone here owning the same model and can perhaps share some experience with it?

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First, before I go any further, welcome to HCAG. Secondly, unfortunately that is one problem with buying on line - if it isn't set up to your preferences you need to either deal with it or send it back - both which cost extra. I'm a great believer in shopping at a store that will take the time to set up a guitar exactly as the buyer wants. But that isn't your question, so...

 

I work on lots of guitars and do setups for my local store. There is no reason that as long as there are no structural issues and the frets are perfect that a guitar can't be set with 12th fret action as low as 0.070 inch (>2mm) on the high E and .0098 (2.5 mm) on the low (those are my normal specs unless the player wants something different). My preference is to set the relief as low as possible (usually 0.004 to 0.006) - again, that is somewhat player dependent.

 

Many manufactures (Martin comes immediately to mind) do ship their guitars to retailers with the action slightly high - it is much easier to lower it than raise it back up. Taylor does seem to ship a little lower, all their cnc stuff lets them dial that closer at the factory, In either case a good store will check it and make whatever adjustments are necessary to suit you, the buyer.

 

If you aren't sure you can do the work yourself then take the guitar to a good tech. He/she will measure all of the parameters of the action, evaluate the condition of the guitar and then make whatever changes are necessary. Good luck, let us know how it goest.

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Hi Freeman, thanks for a quick reply and the welcome!

 

I definitely wanted to try out the guitar in a store but unfortunately I could not find any Takamines I was interested in in any of the stores I've tried in Amsterdam, which I find amazing...

 

Anyway, thanks a lot for the info. If I understood you correctly, it is possible to check how low the action can go by inspecting the guitar (without yet making the changes). Is that correct?

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Anyway, thanks a lot for the info. If I understood you correctly, it is possible to check how low the action can go by inspecting the guitar (without yet making the changes). Is that correct?

 

That is absolutely correct. Before I start work on any guitar I have a little spreadsheet that I fill out - I check the overall condition of the guitar, including the neck angle and condition of the frets. I measure all the setup items (basically relief, action at the first fret and 12, and sometimes a few other things (particularly on older guitars). I would be happy to send you a copy of the spreadsheet - it also has a tab with some of my target values which I've collected over the years. I have to attach it to an e-mail, if you want it please PM me an e-mail addy (don't put it in a reply here). Unfortunately (for you) most of the measurements listed on it are in decimal inches - I'm afraid that the units I work in LOL.

 

I use that spreadsheet to evaluate with the owner what has to be done and when I'm finished there is a column to record the way the guitar was actually set. That gives him a record of what was done and why.

 

For your action to be 4mm (0.157 inch) I'm guessing that there is something else wrong. If it was an old guitar I would guess neck angle, rare on a new one but possible. Take a straight edge about 24 inches (60 cm, you might have to cut off a wooden meter stick) and lay on the frets between the 3rd and 4th strings - the end of it should just touch the top of the bridge in front of the saddle. If it is lower (towards the top of the guitar) then the neck angle is bad and you should definitely return the guitar. If the neck angle is OK there still might be something wrong - in order to get the action down to 3mm or so you are going to have to take twice that much off the saddle - without actually seeing it I don't know if that is possible.

 

This is what the neck angle measurement should look like

 

Neckangle-check.jpg

 

 

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One other thing to note - you say you like the Takamine tone with high action better than the Taylor with low action. I think this is directly related to the high action.

 

I have to set the action a bit higher than I prefer on acoustics to get the full sound out of them. It's a trade-off.

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Hi and welcome to the Forum. First, where are you measuring the action? On acoustic guitars it's normal to measure at the 12th fret; on electrics it's usually measured at the 17th fret. Unfortunately, if you're measuring at the 12th fret, you probably can't get the action the way you want it. As Freeman mentioned, because of basic geometry, in order to get the action form 4mm to 2.5mm at the 12th fret you'd need to lower the bridge 3mm. That's a lot. To get it down to 2.1mm like the Taylor, you'd need to lower the saddle 3.8mm. You want at least 1.6mm or so of saddle sticking up from the bridge and that's pretty minimal. If you needed to lower the saddle 4mm you'd have to have at least 5.5mm exposed, which I strongly doubt you do. A good tech can tell you how much the saddle can be lowered. I'd guess you can probably lower it 1mm or so at the 12th fret but I'm not hopeful you can get it as low as you want. My suggestion would be to either learn to live with it pretty much as is or look for another guitar.

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Thanks a lot for all the info guys.

 

@Freeman - it is a brand new guitar. I think it is enough for me to know that it's not unusual to be able to set the action at about 2.5-3mm. I actually finally found one model of the same Takamaine in a store today that had the action at about 3mm. It played much smoother and the sound (for me) was still better than from the Taylor. As long as it can be setup that way I'm happy with the playability! And indeed, the person in the store said that the action cannot go much lower than the 3mm (perhaps max 2.7mm). Unfortunately, the price is relatively high in the store I saw the guitar today so I will just return the guitar to the webshop and order it with a different store where when it arrives (in 5-7 days) it can be properly setup by a technician free of charge.

 

@DeepEnd - I was measuring 4mm at low E at 12th fret.

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Okay, just wanted to be sure we were comparing apples to apples rather than apples to oranges. It also occurs to me that your current Takamine may have excessive relief, which would produce high action. Put a capo at the first fret and hold down the low E string at the 15th. Slide a feeler gauge between the string and the 7th fret. There should be about 0.15-0.20mm (about 0.006-0.008") of space. If you don't have a feeler gauge, use a business card, although it will be thicker than ideal, closer to 0.25mm or 0.01". If you have a lot of relief, substantially more than 0.2mm, there's a chance the guitar can be set up with low action like you prefer.

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Thanks a lot for all the info guys.

 

@Freeman - it is a brand new guitar. I think it is enough for me to know that it's not unusual to be able to set the action at about 2.5-3mm. I actually finally found one model of the same Takamaine in a store today that had the action at about 3mm. It played much smoother and the sound (for me) was still better than from the Taylor. As long as it can be setup that way I'm happy with the playability! And indeed, the person in the store said that the action cannot go much lower than the 3mm (perhaps max 2.7mm). Unfortunately, the price is relatively high in the store I saw the guitar today so I will just return the guitar to the webshop and order it with a different store where when it arrives (in 5-7 days) it can be properly setup by a technician free of charge.

 

 

The important thing is that you are satisfied with the way it plays. For me, 3mm (0.118 inch) would be unacceptably high. Bryan Kimsey, who sets up lots of Martins for bluegrass players, shoots for 0.105 (2.7mm) on the low E and 0.080 (2.03 mm) high E with 0.004 to 0.008 (0.1 to 0.2 mm) relief. I'm a fingerstyle player and like it slightly lower. There is no reason that any guitar can't be adjusted close to those numbers as long as, as I said in my first post, there are no structural issues (which includes neck angle) and the frets are perfect (both which I would expect on a new guitar).

 

Good luck, I hope that you do find both the guitar you like and someone who can help you get the action perfect. It is possible.

 

 

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@DeepEnd. I've already returned the guitar but thanks for the hint.

@Freeman, indeed, I still feel the difference between 3mm at Takamine I saw and the Taylor with 2.1mm. I will check with the technician at the store once the new Tak arrives, hopefully this week.

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