Members Blackrock Posted July 9, 2015 Members Share Posted July 9, 2015 Last week I refinished the top of a Gretsch acoustic (Historic Series #3100), ...had that "clear candy coating". I used a vibrating sander with 150 grit, then 220 grit, and then 320 by hand (always with the grain). For the finish coat, I simply rubbed the fresh surface with organic bee's wax (isn't all bee's wax "organic"? lol). Any thoughts on this non-traditional finish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 9, 2015 Members Share Posted July 9, 2015 First, welcome to the forum. My only comment is to ask you how happy you are with the finish. I do a certain amount of finishing (and the occasional refin, but I try to avoid them) and I know how hard it is to get acceptable results at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted July 9, 2015 Members Share Posted July 9, 2015 No thoughts but welcome aboard. I'm at work so if you've posted pics I can't see them. If you haven't, please do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted July 9, 2015 Members Share Posted July 9, 2015 Were you all the way down to the wood or did you still have lacquer there? If you still has lacquer you're OK if you didn't I'd say you have problems. Wax alone doesn't protect the wood from humidity changes very well and it does wear off and starts looking ugly. You'll likely notice the wood turning gray which is a sign of things going south. The biggest issue with acoustics is moisture retention. When they dry out they warp up on you and become unplayable. You may have opened up the bee hive because wax will dry the wood out too much. If you want a minimal finish I'd suggest you strip the wax off and go with Tung oil. Stuff like Minwax has allot of Varnish in it, the same stuff you'd use on a violin. Or you could just use varnish which is supposed to produce the best acoustic tones. I like Tung however because you can just wipe it on and add as many layers as you want up to a lacquer type look if you want. You can also buy the semi gloss stuff too. The main thing is it feels real good and its a tough coating, tougher then Lacquer. It also feels good to the hands. It should keep the moisture in the wood so you don't wind up with a warped tip. Its bad enough having the inside of the instrument exposed to the open air. My gestimate is having both sides exposed will double the moisture losses and accelerate warping problems so I'd advise sealing it then using any wax you want over it. Stripping the wax from the wood will be tough though if its already in the fibers. Bees wax isn't all that hard and wont be as tough as Paraffin or Carnauba Wax to remove. Luckily you haven't used silicones or you could forget about ever removing it from the wood or ever getting anything to stick. Any wax stripper from Home Depot or Lowes should work. Make sure you rub the surface with a red Scotch Brite and lacquer thinner. Then scrub the surface with a new Scotch Brite and naphtha and wiping with a fresh cotton towel in between. If the naphtha does not flash off immediately you must repeat above steps. If you can blow on the naphtha and it disappears immediately then the wax is gone. If not you'll see hazing the wood still has wax in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted July 10, 2015 Members Share Posted July 10, 2015 Last week I refinished the top of a Gretsch acoustic (Historic Series #3100), ...had that "clear candy coating". I used a vibrating sander with 150 grit, then 220 grit, and then 320 by hand (always with the grain). For the finish coat, I simply rubbed the fresh surface with organic bee's wax (isn't all bee's wax "organic"? lol). Any thoughts on this non-traditional finish? I did a similar job - in a very similar way - on an old classical (my first guitar bought new in 1696) - worked fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted July 10, 2015 Members Share Posted July 10, 2015 Wow. 1696?!? You must really know your stuff! on-topic: for some things you can't beat good old fashioned unwaxed shellac, i.e. French Polish. Tung Oil will work though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Blackrock Posted July 10, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 10, 2015 The circles around the soundboard "airhole" are still there, so it might not have been down as far as is possible, but I did sand a depth of a distance judging from the amount of white powder being ground off. The plastic finish was certainly removed, which was my intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted July 10, 2015 Members Share Posted July 10, 2015 FWIW, "The circles around the soundboard 'airhole'" are called a "rosette" and they're normally inlaid into the guitar's top (on some cheap guitars they're simply stuck on) so you'd have to do some serious sanding to remove them. The hole itself is called a "soundhole." Anyway, it sounds like you did everything correctly. Please post pics if you can. I'd love to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted July 10, 2015 Members Share Posted July 10, 2015 Are you sure its a poly finish? The only thing I could find Gretsch used poly on are their imported Japanese Electrics. Acoustics are normally always lacquer finishes for best acoustic tone. Poly finishes kill tone and its a real bastard to remove, usually requiring a heat gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 10, 2015 Members Share Posted July 10, 2015 There is an easy test to see what the finish is. Put a tiny drop of denatured alcohol on it, if it softens it is French polish (which a Gretsch will not be). Then put a tiny drop of lacquer thinner on it and if it softens it is nitro cellulose lacquer. If it doesn't it is catalyzed polyurethane or something similar which is what most modern guitars are using. Poly is a "plastic", lacquer is not. I remove a tuner and do this test on the back of the headstock. The only reason you need to know is if you are refinishing over the old finish - you need products that are compatible. If you remove all the old finish, as it sounds like you probably did, then all you need to do is treat it like fresh wood. . Sanding from 150 to 320 will remove all the finish, may or may not damage rosette, binding, purfling, etc. Chemical strippers are similar, they should be used with extreme care. I normally don't sand all the way to 320 when I'm applying lacquer - I want the wood to have a little "tooth" to hold the finish, but I do sand to a very fine grit (2000) after the finish is applied. 320 is probably fine for a wiped finish. Home builders use all sorts of different finishes - most of the time because they lack the means to apply lacquer or don't know how to FP. No one does catalyzed poly at home. Popular finishes include almost anything you find on the shelves at Home Depot, including some mentioned above. I have used lacquer on everything I build with one exception - the so called Barncaster - which I thought I would try TruOil (a gun stock finish that is wiped on). Frankly I was extremely disappointed - I ended up stripping it all off and shooting nitro. Finish is on acoustic guitars for two reasons - to protect the wood from dirt and grime and usually to make it look better. As I said in my first post, if you are happy with the way it looks, your finish will probably give adequate protection and should be just fine. I'll also suggest that you not follow some advice above and try to redo it - you'll just make a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Blackrock Posted July 10, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 10, 2015 Thanks everyone. I'm not sure of the original finish, but the wax is on and it sounds much better than whatever was on to begin with. Since everything inside of the guitar is raw wood, the humidity shouldn't be too much of a factor as long as I have some type of coating on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted July 10, 2015 Members Share Posted July 10, 2015 The finish has nothing to do with humidity - either keeping it in or out (unless you spill a beer on it, of course). There are many people who feel that thick finishes (and poly tends to be thick) dulls the sound - I somewhat doubt that their ears are good enough to detect it. However, like everything else with the guitar, it is a compromise - you want enough to protect and not too much. Wax should be fine. How about a picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted July 12, 2015 Members Share Posted July 12, 2015 I think you took too much off - it's completely transparent in the pics. But seriously, they aren't really meant to be sanded like restoring furniture. It might have trouble with string tension once you knock a bunch of wood off. Whatever you like the look of is what counts, but full disclosure if you sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Blackrock Posted July 22, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2015 I just sanded enough to the surface of the wood - not too much, not too little, ...just right. :-) Maybe sometime in the future I'll be able to get a picture. I did keep the pickguard off, though. It was one of those angled ones and way too shiney - causing it to not really go with the new look of the guitar. Before the refinishing it fit in well, but not too well now. Looks great without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I did a similar job - in a very similar way - on an old classical (my first guitar bought new in 1696) - worked fine. And I thought *I* was old! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted July 24, 2015 Members Share Posted July 24, 2015 I did a similar job - in a very similar way - on an old classical (my first guitar bought new in 1696) - worked fine. Wow. 1696?!? You must really know your stuff!.... He does. Of course, his town has changed quite a bit. There are more Chicken Tikka Masala restaurants now than there were in 1696. I'm surprised that finish is still in tact though. He must've done a heck of a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted August 1, 2015 Members Share Posted August 1, 2015 LOL. I take the prize. Please doff your cap to me henceforth {wink thingy} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted August 1, 2015 Members Share Posted August 1, 2015 Ditto. And please don't mention chicken tikka masala again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Blackrock Posted October 1, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 1, 2015 Here's a picture of said guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Blackrock Posted October 2, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 2, 2015 Not to be one-sided, I refinished the backside last week. Obviously had the same clear thick coating, too. ...Sanded that off, then found some old viscous varnish, the consistancy of molassis, deep brown in color. I wiped that on, then wiped off as much of it as I could - giving it an ultra-thin finish. While it was still "damp" I gave it a generous coating of woodwax, then let the surface mixture dry for about ten minutes, then polished it up. The end result is a very shiney, very thin glossy coat with none of the thickness of the old finish. I'll leave the sides the way they are, because the sound is fine where it is. I wasn't sure if I should even begin a refinishing project like this, but thankfully the end result is what I envisioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Blackrock Posted October 19, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 Write something (optional)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 19, 2015 Members Share Posted October 19, 2015 Rather unconventional but the results speak for themselves. Nice work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Blackrock Posted October 22, 2015 Author Members Share Posted October 22, 2015 The front of the guitar looks better "in person", the shading is a bit off in this picture. And the back looks even more vibrant - with more contrast in the colors. The sound is much improved over the original glossy coating. The new finish allowes the wood to vibrate freely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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