Do bridge pins really makea difference ?

[gardo]

This has probably been discussed before but since I don't know how to search past threads here goes.. Do different types of bridge pins really make a difference? The pins I have now are cheap plastic ,probably ABS.. The guitar is an Epiphone Masterbilt, I'm not sure if these are original or if someone switched them.but they don't impress me . Will diferent pins do much for the sound ?

[DeepEnd]

The jury is out on that one. There are those who say it makes a huge difference and those who say it makes no difference at all. Personally, I think the difference--if any--is likely to be minor and more related to the addition or subtraction of mass. Frankly, I think part of it is psychological: Brass pins are said to sound "bright" and ebony pins are said to sound "dark." Is it a coincidence that brass is bright and ebony is dark? I don't think so. I'd just get some you like. Bear in mind too that there are different sizes of pins and different tapers. Here's a guide for your enjoyment: http://www.maurysmusic.com/fossilize...idge_pin_sizes.

[EdBega]

.... Will diferent pins do much for the sound ?

 

If you want a noticeable sound difference try a bone saddle, different picks or strings.

 

Change the pins for a different look.

 

[gardo]

 

If you want a noticeable sound difference try a bone saddle, different picks or strings.

 

Change the pins for a different look.

Just installed aTusq saddle this afternoon and it took me in the right direction.

[EdBega]

I like the sound of Tusq ... bone is more durable IMO though

[gardo]

Speaking of pins I saw these on Costco's website.

I won't try them but still thought it was interesting.

 

[video=youtube;oykXWr8PviY]

[EdBega]

That's a cool idea ... does sound like more sustain too.

 

I think you should try them and let us know though ..

[EdBega]

That got me curious, just ordered some brass pins ...

[Freeman Keller]

At one time I thought they made a difference

 

 

http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/...la-42/1313271-

 

 

Now I don't really care - I know what I use for pins, saddles etc and why. Btw, the links on that are all broken, its really old but you can get the general idea from reading the comments.

[katopp]

This has probably been discussed before but since I don't know how to search past threads here goes.. Do different types of bridge pins really make a difference? The pins I have now are cheap plastic ' date='probably ABS.. The guitar is an Epiphone Masterbilt, I'm not sure if these are original or if someone switched them.but they don't impress me . Will diferent pins do much for the sound ?[/quote']

 

Gardo, whatever floats your boat.

If it makes you happy, then do it.

Our hearing is highly subjective, our "sound memory" is even worse than we can imagine and it all boils down to: If it floats your boat...

 

If you really want to experience different sounds, try different strings, different picks, different plaing techniques. Even plastic saddles and TuSQ saddles (or bone, or whatever) are sonically not that far apart as we believe. Most of the time, we change more than parameter at a time - like new saddle AND new strings - and that basically makes comparisons impossible.

[garthman]

 

Gardo, whatever floats your boat.

If it makes you happy, then do it.

Our hearing is highly subjective, our "sound memory" is even worse than we can imagine and it all boils down to: If it floats your boat...

 

If you really want to experience different sounds, try different strings, different picks, different plaing techniques. Even plastic saddles and TuSQ saddles (or bone, or whatever) are sonically not that far apart as we believe. Most of the time, we change more than parameter at a time - like new saddle AND new strings - and that basically makes comparisons impossible.

 

Perfect answer.

 

 

[guitarcapo]

It would seem superficially logical to assume they do... but in reality they don't.

 

The "weight" theory can easily be shot down by simply taping a few pennies to the bridge and playing the guitar (the weight difference between brass and plastic would be equivalent to a penny or two). You won't hear a difference. There's hundreds of pounds of tension that the strings are applying to the guitar top. A few grams is like a drop of water in a swimming pool.

 

Another fun experiment might be to actually PRESS the bridge with your hand and see how much pressure it takes to dampen the sound of your guitar after you strum a huge E major chord. You'll be surprised how much force it takes. And then look over at those two pennies.......

 

There is a testing bias error called the "ideomotor phenomenon" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_phenomenon or "Ouiji board effect" that might explain why some people hear a difference when they swap out bridge pins, throw a rattle snake rattle inside their guitar, change tuners etc....

 

Basically the tester subconsciously digs into the strings a little harder when making a test recording....or playing for others. There's also the very real possibility that the experimenter is simply hearing something that isn't there due to wishful bias.

 

Now the SADDLE material DOES have a bit of influence on a guitar's sound...because vibrations pass through it from the strings directly to the bridge and soundboard. But the pins pretty much vibrate along with the bridge and soundboard itself and have no effect.

 

Another component that has little effect on sound is the nut material. Once the nut is sufficiently solid enough to stop the string's vibrations and create a "nodal point" to the string's vibrational arc, it doesn't matter whether it's made out of hard plastic, bone, brass etc. he sound is the same. Not that the nut must be sufficiently rigid enough to "stop" the string. A nut made out of soft rubber won't do this and dampen things.

This is why a string has the same tonal quality when the notes are plucked openly as they do when fretted in first position. The metal frets don't impart any color to the tone that's any different than the resultant tone the nut might create.

[EdBega]

I do think sustain difference would be more easily detectable than a very slight tone difference. Too much sustain may not be a good thing though, the S6 I had sustained forever but I thought it caused it to sound muddy when strummed fast, others attributed that to the cedar top ...

 

 

 

 

 

[DeepEnd]

. . . The "weight" theory can easily be shot down by simply taping a few pennies to the bridge and playing the guitar (the weight difference between brass and plastic would be equivalent to a penny or two). You won't hear a difference. There's hundreds of pounds of tension that the strings are applying to the guitar top. A few grams is like a drop of water in a swimming pool. . . .

Except we're not talking about tension, we're talking about mass. Heavier/lighter pins change the mass of the bridge and top, which in turn are what the strings are driving. More mass means harder to drive and more inertia to stop, ergo more sustain. I got chastised years ago by a builder (remember Guitar Stringer?) for suggesting that headstock mass shouldn't have a pronounced effect. If headstock mass affects tone, sustain, etc., then so does bridge mass. Frankly, I'm not convinced but at least there's a theoretical basis. You may have shot but you missed.

[EdBega]

I compared plastic and ebony pins with no real noticeable difference, probably not a lot of mass difference there either but if the mass theory is correct I would think that it also has something to do with being in direst contact with the strings otherwise as mentioned taping a few pennys to the bridge would make a difference also ...

[Idunno]

I would like to think learned people who build guitars would have provided us with some insight on this topic by now. But, no.

 

Unless...

 

Lowden and Breedlove think so little of pinned bridges they designed string-thru bridge guitars. Evidently they pay little heed to the more acute break angle (downward pressure) across the saddle from pinned bridges. Furthering that just a tad more, they dispensed with the notion that the string ball-ends play an important role in imparting frequency into the top via the bridge plate. So, pin mass, greater pressure across the saddle and the utility of the string ball ends are evidently unimportant aspects to builders who have string-thru bridge designs. So far, the two I mention aren't suffering from it.

[DeepEnd]

If headstock mass has any significant noticeable effect on tone, etc., you'd notice it when you have a capo or a tuner clamped on it. . . .

 

. . . OTOH, the bridge and its components are right in the middle of where the vibration from the strings is moving the top. A difference in mass will affect the tone. Whether it's enough to notice is also obviously a matter of opinion.

 

I once made a joke about trying some lead bridge pins, but if you tried them, it just might prove a point. Plastic bridge pins are light. Lead bridge pins are not. . . .

Yeah, in the instance I cited I was specifically referring to the notion that tuning machines of varying weight could produce not merely subtle but profound changes. I said I didn't believe it and that you could achiever the same result attaching pennies of nickels to your existing tuners with epoxy. Guitar Stringer called me ignorant. Of course, he always was a sweet guy.

As for lead pins, lead is soft and I'd think it would tend to absorb and damp vibrations. A gold alloy might work but gold bridge pins seem a bit much for most of us. Might be worth it on an Olson or something. Anybody got a good ear and too much money?

[Idunno]

I tried the brass pins Freeman displays that have the round head with the knurled sides. I used them on a Larrivee in an attempt to alter a particular string's sound that wasn't sitting well in the mix. At that point I'd already run the gauntlet of ideas so brass pins were my last ditch effort. Nope; nothing. Out it went with the bath water and brass pins.

 

I do think we tell ourselves we hear things when we don't. And, all too often people buy really expensive guitars that sound absolutely perfect to their eyes. I'd like a penny for each of those transactions.

[EdBega]

I tried the brass pins Freeman displays that have the round head with the knurled sides. I used them on a Larrivee in an attempt to alter a particular string's sound that wasn't sitting well in the mix. At that point I'd already run the gauntlet of ideas so brass pins were my last ditch effort. Nope; nothing. Out it went with the bath water and brass pins.

 

I do think we tell ourselves we hear things when we don't. And, all too often people buy really expensive guitars that sound absolutely perfect to their eyes. I'd like a penny for each of those transactions.

 

This might be of interest to you ..

 

 

 

[YOUTUBE]V2xnXArjPts[/YOUTUBE]

[bigald18]

Bridge pins are the absoluteyl most crucial part on a guitar. They make a great difference in sound depending on which materials used, BUT, you may or may not like the sound change. Many folks also disparage the poor nut saying it does little to change sound. My impression has always been (from practical experience) that the harder and more dense a material is the better the coupling and transference of vibration seems to be.

 

BigAl

[garthman]

All my guitars have whatever pins they came with (except for the odd occasion when one has gone missing in which case I use a replacement that looks similar to the others).

[Idunno]

 

This might be of interest to you ..

 

 

 

[YOUTUBE]V2xnXArjPts[/YOUTUBE]

 

If you tune the strings at the mid position of the neck - around the 6th or 7th fret - and tune spot-on to the note for those frets, you accomplished the same thing. I learned that in 1975.

[EdBega]

I tried the brass pins Freeman displays that have the round head with the knurled sides. I used them on a Larrivee in an attempt to alter a particular string's sound that wasn't sitting well in the mix. At that point I'd already run the gauntlet of ideas so brass pins were my last ditch effort. Nope; nothing. Out it went with the bath water and brass pins.

 

I do think we tell ourselves we hear things when we don't. And, all too often people buy really expensive guitars that sound absolutely perfect to their eyes. I'd like a penny for each of those transactions.

 

Just curious which particular string was not sitting well in the mix?

[gardo]

My impression has always been (from practical experience) that the harder and more dense a material is the better the coupling and transference of vibration seems to be.

 

BigAl

This is where I'm coming from.. I have no problem with hard plastic pins but the relatively soft ABS pins have to be a tone killer.

[Idunno]

The B string. The guitar was an OMV-09E. Over the course of a couple years the B string developed a sound that was out of character with the guitar. I figured the frequency might be the culprit so I changed pitch downward 1/2 and then 1 whole step. No help there, I took it in to have a look at the interior for possible structural clues. Nothing. Then came the dance of the strings. Nichts. Then I began experimenting with hybrid string gauges. There was some minor changes there but not enough. Then came the bridge, saddle, slot, pins, nut, tuner...the whole nine.

 

It was easier to part company.

 

Now, I've always had a problem with the B string frequency and I can get fixated on it. I admit that much. I can't tune it to open B by ear so I go up the neck and tune it to G at the 8th fret. That's how I came to tune the whole guitar mid board. This particular Larrivee just had a wolf string. It would go away if I capo'd 3 and played from there. A whole step down capo'd at three put me 1/2 step up and within my vocal range and I did that for quite a while. Then I saw a Breedlove concert and swapped out.

 

I still like the Larrivee product overall. This guitar didn't throw the brand under my bus.