Members Etienne Rambert Posted October 10, 2014 Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 I took my favorite guitar* to Mr. Binh. I told him I wanted to switch from .11's and try .10's for awhile.The action was PERFECT with .11's. A Strat owner told me it played like his Strat. But I was running out of .11's in my stockpile. I stay outside the US for long periods and can't buy EXP's or Elixirs where I live. I use .11's on both Guilds.I had a surplus of .10's though. I only use them on my arch-top. So I thought I'd put .10's on my F65ce.It came stock wth .10's when it was in production. I got the guitar back in one day. And the action was higher and more difficult to play with .10's than with .11's. I asked Binh -- WTF? He told me he did it to eliminate buzzing. Anyway - I'm taking it back tomorrow - with a set of .11's. He says he can make it right with the .10's. This guitar HAD the best action of any guitar I've ever played - any brand - until this week. It has a lot of saddle left -- years of saddle. And the neck is straight. Why would a lower gauge string make the action worse? Good thing I have a trip back to the States soon. I've been stocking up on strings. I'll have about 3 years worth when I fly back from the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted October 10, 2014 Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 Hi Marc A lower gauge string will not in itself make the action worse. All that a different gauge string will do is alter the tension on the neck. If you go from a higher gauge to a lower gauge string you will reduce the tension that the neck experiences so the truss rod will tend to straighten the neck. This will bring the string a little closer to the fretboard - the difference will be greater towards the (length-ways) middle of the fretboard - so in effect the action will be lower. The opposite will happen if you go from a lower to a higher gauge string - the string will exert more tension on the neck which will increase the bow in the neck. The action of a guitar is effected by 3 things really: the depth of the nut slots, the height of the saddle and the truss rod adjustment. But all the truss rod does is enable the neck relief to be set to a degree that you don't get string buzz when you play - generally you will adjust the nut and saddle first to get the "right" (for your playing style) height of the strings above the fretboard - then adjust the neck relief. I use primarily 10's and 11's on my guitars and often switch between those gauges on the same guitar. The "action" never changes - all I have to do - and only on a couple of guitars - is adjust the truss rod to get the correct relief. I suspect that Mr Binh may have made some adjustments when he fitted those lighter strings - maybe shimmed the saddle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 10, 2014 Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 Etienne, with 11's on your guitar you had approximately 149 pounds of string tension pulling on the neck and bridge. With 10's that drops to 133 pounds. The higher tension of the 11's would have put a tiny bit more relief in the neck - the lower tension lets it straighten ever so slightly. If you action had been set very low that could have been enough to cause some buzzing. It is a very fine balance, you were probably just at that fine edge. btw - that is frequently the request I get - "set the action as low as possible without buzzing".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members katopp Posted October 10, 2014 Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 Lighter strings have less tension and tend to vibrate at a bigger amplitude. While trying to still get some volume out of that Guild, you will have to play more intensely, hence even more amplitude in the vibration. Hence the strings start to buzz.Lighter strings not always will give you lower action. Depending on the balance of nut height, saddle height and trussrod (as Garth explained), you end up being worse off with lighter strings than with heavier gauges... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted October 10, 2014 Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 IIRC Freeman once showed me a chart showing at some point more relief could actually cause buzzing or at least that's was what I took from it??!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted October 10, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 The action was perfect with .11's. There was no buzzing. It's a fabulous instrument. I don't think he shimmed the saddle. I go from 11 to 10 and the action got higher. He must have tried to compensate with the truss rod and went too far. That's all I can think of. As far as volume goes, I didn't notice much difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 11, 2014 Members Share Posted October 11, 2014 IIRC Freeman once showed me a chart showing at some point more relief could actually cause buzzing or at least that's was what I took from it??!! Here is that "chart" What it is attempting to show is that too much relief can result in buzzing in the upper frets near the neck to body joint. You need some or it will buzz in the first five or six frets, too much and it will buzz up the neck He must have tried to compensate with the truss rod and went too far. That's all I can think of. As far as volume goes, I didn't notice much difference. Adjusting the t/r will change the action but as we have discussed many times, that is not what its there for. Adjust it to get the ideal relief, then, and only then, shim/sand the saddle to get the action you want. Your Mr Bihn should know that and I'm sure he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted October 11, 2014 Members Share Posted October 11, 2014 . . . I don't think he shimmed the saddle. I go from 11 to 10 and the action got higher. He must have tried to compensate with the truss rod and went too far. That's all I can think of. . . . If he didn't shim the saddle, he mucked with the relief and, as you suspect, gave the guitar 'way too much. Switching string gauges could have resulted in less relief, which would have necessitated an adjustment. I have no idea how lightly built your Guild is (a more lightly built guitar is more likely to exhibit changes in relief as a result of string gauge changes) but it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted October 11, 2014 Members Share Posted October 11, 2014 Here is that "chart" What it is attempting to show is that too much relief can result in buzzing in the upper frets near the neck to body joint. You need some or it will buzz in the first five or six frets, too much and it will buzz up the neck Adjusting the t/r will change the action but as we have discussed many times, that is not what its there for. Adjust it to get the ideal relief, then, and only then, shim/sand the saddle to get the action you want. Your Mr Bihn should know that and I'm sure he does. I must be thinking of someone else maybe another Freeman, this was an actual chart with lines and measurements on the frets ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted October 12, 2014 Members Share Posted October 12, 2014 Less tension, as the others have said. When I switch from 10s to 9s on my electric I always need to loosen the truss rod a hair and raise the action a tiny bit to compensate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted October 12, 2014 Members Share Posted October 12, 2014 Retraction - the action went up with a lower gauge, so he must have done either the truss rod or raised the saddle. It is harder to get lower tension strings really low without buzzing. 10s are lighter than I've used on an acoustic, but must be easy to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EdBega Posted October 12, 2014 Members Share Posted October 12, 2014 It is possible too much relief was added initially possibly causing the buzz and then more was added to compensate. I have had it happen and Freeman showed me the errors of my way. I would think Mr Bing has employees for menial jobs like changing strings so it's a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted October 13, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 13, 2014 I got it back again with the same .10's on it. I didn't get much time to play with it though. Traveling at the moment. But it seemed to play as well -- no easier or better -- as it played with .11's. So maybe that's a start. I'm on the road for a month. So I loosened the strings a bit and put the guitar in its case. I'll report back in a month - when I spend some time with it again. Note: It never buzzed. The action was just more difficult. I think he adjusted the truss rod to eliminate buzz and went too far. No buzz before or when I got it back again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Idunno Posted October 13, 2014 Members Share Posted October 13, 2014 Funny thing about those adjustments. A slight turn on one gives a slight result on the neck angle change. That same amount of turn on another guitar can give a different amount of change. I adjust and wait a 24 hour period. Binh probably made an adjustment, was satisfied with it but it might not have fully settled into the new adjustment when you got it back. I can't believe I'm talking about acoustic guitars. Must be the Guinness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted October 14, 2014 Members Share Posted October 14, 2014 It's just physics. Strings with less tension will have more travel when they're vibrating so will have a different "minimum height with no buzz" level. If the truss rod is set properly for the new gauge and they're still buzzing it's time for a new higher saddle or a swap back to 11's if you're not happy with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted October 15, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 15, 2014 It's just physics. Strings with less tension will have more travel when they're vibrating so will have a different "minimum height with no buzz" level. If the truss rod is set properly for the new gauge and they're still buzzing it's time for a new higher saddle or a swap back to 11's if you're not happy with it. My guitar strings never buzzed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted October 15, 2014 Members Share Posted October 15, 2014 No - I'm saying with lighter strings you can't get away with the action as low, which is why I suspect he had to raise it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted October 17, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 No - I'm saying with lighter strings you can't get away with the action as low' date=' which is why I suspect he had to raise it.[/quote'] Thanks. If that's the case, I'm going back to .11's. I shouldn't have messed with something that was fine - as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members katopp Posted October 17, 2014 Members Share Posted October 17, 2014 if it's just fixed - don't break it!the thinner the string, the more it needs to swing. told you before. thinking of getting to sgn/hcmc in spring. this time on my own :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarcapo Posted October 18, 2014 Members Share Posted October 18, 2014 Here's my theory: He strung it up with the lighter gauge strings and the lower string tension failed to "lift the top" or create enough neck relief (or both). This caused a "buzz" when playing. He tried to compensate for this problem by adjusting the truss rod to make more neck relief...or by raising the saddle (or both). He overdid things and now you have high action. It's a tricky thing because you really don't know how things will settle out to be until you string the guitar back up and everything is under tension. If you like the guitar's sound with the lighter gauge strings. He can probably correct things by simply tweaking the truss rod or saddle height (or both) The key is to make sure you like the SOUND with the lighter gauge strings because he's making adjustments that will be thrown off all over again if you go back to heavier gauge strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted October 19, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 19, 2014 if it's just fixed - don't break it! the thinner the string, the more it needs to swing. told you before. thinking of getting to sgn/hcmc in spring. this time on my own :-) Yeah, you right! You know my number too. I'm a bistro owner now. Here's my theory: He strung it up with the lighter gauge strings and the lower string tension failed to "lift the top" or create enough neck relief (or both). This caused a "buzz" when playing. He tried to compensate for this problem by adjusting the truss rod to make more neck relief...or by raising the saddle (or both). He overdid things and now you have high action. It's a tricky thing because you really don't know how things will settle out to be until you string the guitar back up and everything is under tension. If you like the guitar's sound with the lighter gauge strings. He can probably correct things by simply tweaking the truss rod or saddle height (or both) The key is to make sure you like the SOUND with the lighter gauge strings because he's making adjustments that will be thrown off all over again if you go back to heavier gauge strings. Yeah, I think that's what happened. My situation was: I use .11's on two guitars (the Guilds) and .10's on one guitar, the arch-top. So the stock of .11's dwindled faster than the stock of .10's. I had not been back to the States for 18 months and was running out of .11's. I didn't know switching gauges could mess things up. But it did. The guitar played perfectly with .11's. I should NOT have messed with it. If I go back to .11's, it will probably need more adjusting and who knows if I'll get it back to where it once was? I'm back in the US at present and have stocked up on good strings. I should be set on .11's for about 2 years. BTW, the F65ce models originally shipped from Westerly with .10's on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tony Burns Posted October 25, 2014 Members Share Posted October 25, 2014 Etienne curious - you mentioned something about having to go to the states for strings -curious why you couldnt just order some on the net and have them shipped to you -dont think that too much of a difficult thing - curious about that difficulty for you - maybe find a seller who ships internationally . maybe im just not aware of international shipping problems - just doesnt seem fair ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted November 11, 2014 Author Members Share Posted November 11, 2014 Etienne curious - you mentioned something about having to go to the states for strings - curious why you couldnt just order some on the net and have them shipped to you -dont think that too much of a difficult thing - curious about that difficulty for you - maybe find a seller who ships internationally . maybe im just not aware of international shipping problems - just doesnt seem fair ! Basically, there are issues with customs. That's why. But I'm back now. I have a 1-2 year supply now maybe. But I am thinking about an international order and seeing what happens w/customs. I might sell these things. I intend to sell coated strings over here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thankyou Posted November 14, 2014 Members Share Posted November 14, 2014 I thought about you, Marc, just this morning, while watching Martha Steward show how to make Pho, a Vietnamese street vendor food. Very complicated and long-cooking meal, but it sounded delicious. Ca va? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted November 15, 2014 Author Members Share Posted November 15, 2014 I thought about you, Marc, just this morning, while watching Martha Steward show how to make Pho, a Vietnamese street vendor food. Very complicated and long-cooking meal, but it sounded delicious. Ca va? C'est bien. First time anyone told me Martha Stewart reminded them of me. I'm not much on Pho. My wife owns a bistro now though. We make Vietnamese and Cajun. We don't do Pho, because as you say, it's street food. I don't like the soggy white noodles. The spice combinations are nice though. We do make gumbo. Real gumbo. Few places in this part of the world have a clue what gumbo is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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