Members phaeton Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 Hey folks. I'm primarily an electric player but I would like to add a nylon string acoustic to my "huge pile of too many guitars". Here is why: in spite of my tendency to murder my neighbor's eardrums with the crushing SPL of huge humbuckers and all 27 gain stages in my Laney AOR going critical mass, I also like "pretty fingerpicky melodic stuff". I'll never be a traditional "classical guitarist", but I have more than a few handfuls of fingerpicked tunes that sound really boss on nylon string, and I tend to "write" them often enough (using an electric) that I think I owe it to myself to have the real deal. Specifically, I'm looking for one with these appointments: - onboard electronics (i.e., is an electric-acoustic so I can buy lots of batteries)- cutaway (for those rippin' heavy nylon solos)- within the range of $300-$600 (which is negotiable the longer I wait) The above things are easy to read off a website, but here are some things that I hope you guys can help me with: 1) I think I want a full classical width fretboard that is radiused. On a whim I bought an Ibanez GA35TCE, which hits all the above points. It's "okay". I'm going to return it, but in the meantime, I'm noticing some pain and suffering in the index finger from doing barre chords. I know that some brands make crossovers with radiused fretboards, but I haven't played one. How does a radiused board affect playability when you approach it like a classical guitar? Are there any with full classical width, or is that (in your folks' experience) even necessary? 2) I might use a pick sometimes. Not just precise arpeggio and pedal runs, I mean the the unwashed, full open chord strumming, possibly with a beer or two in me. Hopefully there are nylon-string guitars with either a "pick resistant" finish on the top, or can be fitted with a "pickguard". (in England, they call it a "scratchplate" and busk on the wrong side of the road). Since I know nothing about acoustic guitars, is that something people do? Does attaching a pickguard to the top of an acoustic change its tone? 3) What brands should I look at? I could tell you all day long about the nuances of electric guitars, but for acoustics I don't know much. One friend suggests Cordoba, another suggests Taylor. I know a guy with a (steel string) Martin and he loves it. This Ibanez I have seems to be well made but it sounds and plays like a cheap guitar. $300-$500 is middle of the road in the electric world, but I'm getting the impression that this is the cheap end in the acoustic world. Is that so? 4) Brightwork and garishness. The big thing I notice with acoustic guitars is that as you go up in price, the more you start seeing things like gold hardware, MOP inlays, stained glass windows, 16-layer bindings, hand-carved billet brass frets, etc. I'm a fan of rather plain-looking guitars. All the gold and jewels are fine for people who enjoy those things, but I don't want to pay for them myself. I love just plain wood with a satin finish, but unfortunately I've only seen this getup on the lower end guitars. Surely there are some quality instruments that aren't so tarted up? 5) New vs used. I'm always fine buying used electrics, but something about a used acoustic makes me trepidatious. Probably because you can't just unbolt/bolt on defective parts- for repairs you must rely on old monks with huge grey beards who study arcane woodworking practices in secret societies on mountain tops. How well do acoustic guitars hold up used? Anything specific to look for (other than the obvious, like "bridge fell off" or "on fire"), or are used acoustic instruments a scary prospect? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Neal Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 Long focking post. You serious, or just posting? Y'know, I've noticed a "few" posts in this forum geared like yours to help create some interest in folks sharing their knowledge, talking about stuff, without actually wanting to have a conversation. Almost like it's a cry for the lonely to start talking (...and... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phaeton Posted September 14, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 I will admit, I got a little zany. But I am serious about purchasing a nylon string guitar. If this post is completely inappropriate for this forum I'll delete it and write a more 'formal' one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Neal Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 Zany... Yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 1) I think I want a full classical width fretboard that is radiused. On a whim I bought an Ibanez GA35TCE, which hits all the above points. It's "okay". I'm going to return it, but in the meantime, I'm noticing some pain and suffering in the index finger from doing barre chords. I know that some brands make crossovers with radiused fretboards, but I haven't played one. How does a radiused board affect playability when you approach it like a classical guitar? Are there any with full classical width, or is that (in your folks' experience) even necessary? 2) I might use a pick sometimes. Not just precise arpeggio and pedal runs, I mean the the unwashed, full open chord strumming, possibly with a beer or two in me. Hopefully there are nylon-string guitars with either a "pick resistant" finish on the top, or can be fitted with a "pickguard". (in England, they call it a "scratchplate" and busk on the wrong side of the road). Since I know nothing about acoustic guitars, is that something people do? Does attaching a pickguard to the top of an acoustic change its tone? 3) What brands should I look at? I could tell you all day long about the nuances of electric guitars, but for acoustics I don't know much. One friend suggests Cordoba, another suggests Taylor. I know a guy with a (steel string) Martin and he loves it. This Ibanez I have seems to be well made but it sounds and plays like a cheap guitar. $300-$500 is middle of the road in the electric world, but I'm getting the impression that this is the cheap end in the acoustic world. Is that so? 4) Brightwork and garishness. The big thing I notice with acoustic guitars is that as you go up in price, the more you start seeing things like gold hardware, MOP inlays, stained glass windows, 16-layer bindings, hand-carved billet brass frets, etc. I'm a fan of rather plain-looking guitars. All the gold and jewels are fine for people who enjoy those things, but I don't want to pay for them myself. I love just plain wood with a satin finish, but unfortunately I've only seen this getup on the lower end guitars. Surely there are some quality instruments that aren't so tarted up? 5) New vs used. I'm always fine buying used electrics, but something about a used acoustic makes me trepidatious. Probably because you can't just unbolt/bolt on defective parts- for repairs you must rely on old monks with huge grey beards who study arcane woodworking practices in secret societies on mountain tops. How well do acoustic guitars hold up used? Anything specific to look for (other than the obvious, like "bridge fell off" or "on fire"), or are used acoustic instruments a scary prospect? Thanks. I'm not an expert on classicals but there is a whole new genre of nylon string instruments designed for people like you (or the steel string player that wants to add a nylon to their quiver). They are frequently called "hybrid" and tend to have the following features 1 - a wide but slightly radiused fingerboard. Often about 1-7/8 with 20 inches of radius (the usual for a classical is 2 inched and dead flat). This allows a little sloppier technique with your fretting hand and a more familiar feel. Classicals tend to have higher action that you are used to and a bit more relief, but they don't have the high string tension of a steel string. 2 - a cut and electronics. No true classical player wants either, but again, its designed to appeal to people who might plug in. Be aware that most players don't go much above 12 - intonation gets kind of wonky and it is hard to reach those frets. 3 - a truss rod and bolt on neck. True classicals have the relief planed into the neck and the angle is set at manufacture by something called a "Spanish heel". Its nice to have some control over both. 4 - bling. True classicals are very, well, traditional. No headstock inlay, blocked wood marquetry for the rosette, usually no fretboard markers. They are usually spruce or cedar over rosewood with a few exceptions. Hybrids tend to open up wood choices and frequently have a bit of bling. 5 - picks, sure, you'll wear out the strings faster and most guitars don't have pick guards (you can add a clear one if you want, it won't significantly affect the tone). Willie Nelson plays Trigger (an old Martin nylon) with a pick - you'll get similar results. 5 - Brands and guitars. Yamaha makes several (including some designed by Rodrigo and Gabriela), and Cordoba which will be within your price range. Look at the Taylor nylon series, they will most definitely not be in your price range but they have all the features you are looking for http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/category/nylon 6 - As far as new vs used, with a new instrument you should get it properly set up by the store selling it to you, you will get a warranty (not quite as important with a nylon since is probably won't need a neck reset during its life). One problem with used is that there frankly aren't that many out there - you might find a good classical that you can add electronics but the true hybrids are a pretty small market and thus they don't turn over as often. I'm one of the grey beards that repairs these things so if you see one that has obvious problems as here and maybe we can help. 7 - There was an article in Acoustic Guitar magazine a year or so ago about hybrids, if you want I could try to find it. If you google "hybrid nylon string guitar" you should get lots of info. There are a few classical players here and they may chime in with their own preferences - I'm just talking in general. Good luck, report back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phaeton Posted September 14, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 Thanks for that info, Freeman. As far as the article, I dug and found this: http://www.guitarworld.com/acoustic-nation-nylon-string-guitar-tips-steel-string-players You brought up a lot of things I handn't known, such as truss rods and things in nylon guitars. This Ibanez seems to be in the 'hybrid' category you mentioned, and it does have a truss rod. It also has a dead flat fretboard and I think that's becoming a (pain) problem for me: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GA35TCEDVS/sn213R01GZ130102006 Another review of this guitar (from someone studying traditional classical guitar) said that the width was prohibitively narrow when he got into contrapuntal motions. As I stated, I don't foresee myself studying classical guitar in the traditional sense, but I do like some complex stuff that requires wicked fingerwork. That is why I'm hoping for a guitar with the full width AND a radiused fretboard. Interestingly, this Ibanez has perfect intonation all the way up the fretboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 Long focking post. You serious' date=' or just posting? Y'know, I've noticed a "few" posts in this forum geared like yours to help create some interest in folks sharing their knowledge, talking about stuff, without actually wanting to have a conversation. Almost like it's a cry for the lonely to start talking (...and... )[/quote'] I have a Yamaha AP6na on the other side of the ocean. Nice nylon string cutaway with almost a steel-string guitar neck. Good electronics. I don't know if Yamaha makes nylons for the APX series anymore. But I was very pleased with mine. Check out Yamaha in general. It had APX5na, 6na, 9na. My other nylon string is a handmade Mr. Binh cutaway. It kills the Yamaha in unplugged tone. But the Yammie has it beat plugged in and with the sleek neck. The APX nylons have narrower necks than most classicals. I liked that about mine. It was closer to the steel-string experience. Neal you're crying for help. We know. It's understandable. We all feel terrible about that defenseless little hedgehog. What kind of universe is it anyway that can allow such things to happen? How can humanity claim to be superior to animals, when one of our own species does things like that to a poor little hedgehog. We know you need closure. We all do. And the cavalry is on its way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 I found the AG article - November 2012. You can usually download or read on line - if not I could always copy it and snail mail to you. They reviewed the following guitars (prices are list and "street") Alhambra CS-1 CW E2 $2118/$1800Cordoba GK PRO $1770/$1399Hill Guitar Co Fingerstyle-G $1995/$1795Martin 000C Nylon $1999/$1499Taylor 314CE-N $2238/$1649 They also list but don't review 13 others ranging in price from $329/219 up to $5K Remember that in most cases in the $300-600 price range you might get a solid top but most certainly will not get solid back and sides. When you stop to think that a good pickup often costs a hundred bucks or so its pretty easy to see that for $300 you probably won't get much of a guitar. Some of these guitars use bracing patterns and construction more associated with steel string guitars (the Martin and Taylor at least). Reading thru the reviews AG comments that most of the guitars have 1-7/8 nuts but the Alhambra and Cordoba are closer to the standard 2 inches (50mm). Both of them do have some radius to the board which might be to your liking. I know that Cordoba has some less expensive models - might be worth looking into. I know that this might be hard to do but you really should try to play anything you can in this style of guitar - both for the playability issues and to see if it provides the sound you want. Good luck, let us know what you find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 Like Etiene I have a Yamaha APX6NA. It is a hybrid (aka crossover) nylon string guitar, viz. a compromise between a standard classical and a steel string acoustic. It has a cutaway and electronics. Yamaha have discontinued the APX nylon string range and replaced it with their NTX range. These are very similar to the APX in that they have 48mm neck width at the nut (that's 4mm narrower than a standard classical) and a radiused fretboard. There are 3 models available with different specs (and prices of course). More info here: http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/guitars-basses/el_nylon_guitars/ntx/?mode=series#tab=feature If you must have a full width neck you might like the Yamaha NCX (although I don't think they have a radiused neck): http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/guitars-basses/el_nylon_guitars/ncx/#tab=feature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Neal Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 I have a Yamaha AP6na on the other side of the ocean. Nice nylon string cutaway with almost a steel-string guitar neck. Good electronics. I don't know if Yamaha makes nylons for the APX series anymore. But I was very pleased with mine. Check out Yamaha in general. It had APX5na' date=' 6na, 9na. My other nylon string is a handmade Mr. Binh cutaway. It kills the Yamaha in unplugged tone. But the Yammie has it beat plugged in and with the sleek neck. The APX nylons have narrower necks than most classicals. I liked that about mine. It was closer to the steel-string experience. Neal you're crying for help. We know. It's understandable. We all feel terrible about that defenseless little hedgehog. What kind of universe is it anyway that can allow such things to happen? How can humanity claim to be superior to animals, when one of our own species does things like that to a poor little hedgehog. We know you need closure. We all do. And the cavalry is on its way. [img']http://www.marcellis.net/music/images/july2012a-small.jpg[/img] Did I post here last night? Jesus.. Step away, nothin' to see here.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted September 14, 2014 Members Share Posted September 14, 2014 My last classical was a low end Alvarez so I can't add anything but I hope BlackHatHunter will join the discussion. He has a Taylor nylon string that has given him a fair amount of trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phaeton Posted September 17, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 17, 2014 I'll see if my local GC has an NTX, but I'm not sure if they do. I think I need the radius more than I need the width, unfortunately. I'm also trying to work out if the problem is due to technique, but I think flat fretboards might be out of the realm for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted September 17, 2014 Members Share Posted September 17, 2014 I'll see if my local GC has an NTX, but I'm not sure if they do. I think I need the radius more than I need the width, unfortunately. I'm also trying to work out if the problem is due to technique, but I think flat fretboards might be out of the realm for me If you are primarily an electric guitar player then the hybrid nylon string guitar (NTX etc etc) is definitely the way to go. You will be much more at ease with the radiused, narrower fretboard. HST I play all types of guitar: electric, steel string acoustic, 12 string acoustic and classical. You soon get used to the different fretboards if you practise regularly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Idunno Posted September 18, 2014 Members Share Posted September 18, 2014 UOTE=garthman;n31260097] If you are primarily an electric guitar player then the hybrid nylon string guitar (NTX etc etc) is definitely the way to go. You will be much more at ease with the radiused, narrower fretboard. HST I play all types of guitar: electric, steel string acoustic, 12 string acoustic and classical. You soon get used to the different fretboards if you practise regularly. I'll second this. I'm also a fan of the Yamaha NTX series guitars. The neck has a good radius and the 48mm nut is expandable to about 50 because the neck is wide enough for it. Just have to get a new nut cut to add the spacing. Not cheap, though, and they don't pop up on the aftermarket often. Great electronics, you can rock this guitar. My kid obsconded with mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phaeton Posted September 24, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 24, 2014 Yamaha NTX Series I took the Ibanez back to Guitar center today, and went into the acoustic room. They did have a Yamaha NTX that I did play. It seemed alright. Then I played a Cordoba GK Studio and the difference was night and day. (The difference is also about $250 :-/ ). The Cordoba's fretboard was wider and flatter, and it was actually more comfortable to play than the narrower, rounder Yamaha. Which of course doesn't make any sense at all. I also really liked the sound of the Cordoba a lot more (though I didn't plug either of them in). And of course, both guitars made the Ibanez seem like a real piece of garbage. I didn't have a whole lot of time with either guitar, but I feel like I would rather save up a few more months and go with the Cordoba over the Yamaha. Maybe this weekend I can go back down and put more time on them, and really check them both out. Of course GCs website has a handful of really negative reviews for the Cordoba GK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlackHatHunter Posted September 24, 2014 Members Share Posted September 24, 2014 Godin Multiac ACS-SA. /thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phaeton Posted September 24, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 24, 2014 Godin Multiac ACS-SA. /thread If I had $1000-$1500 to spend, I would certainly consider one. I have a Godin LG SP90 that is most certainly way more guitar than what I paid for it. I haven't seen a whole lot of Godins but the ones I have all seem to be real top notch through and through. I'm surprised that they're so under-represented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Idunno Posted September 24, 2014 Members Share Posted September 24, 2014 The Yamaha NTX series aren't what I'd call primarily acoustic guitars. They're acoustic-electric guitars at best. Plug'em in and they shine much mo' gooder, IMO, than unplugged. The Cordoba sounds like a true acoustically designed guitar and probably does sound better than the NTX. But, you were on about the electric influence on nylon so folks told you what they knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phaeton Posted September 24, 2014 Author Members Share Posted September 24, 2014 The Yamaha NTX series aren't what I'd call primarily acoustic guitars. They're acoustic-electric guitars at best. Plug'em in and they shine much mo' gooder' date=' IMO, than unplugged. The Cordoba sounds like a true acoustically designed guitar and probably does sound better than the NTX. But, you were on about the electric influence on nylon so folks told you what they knew.[/quote'] Of course! I wasn't poo-pooing the NTX or anyone's advice. I got great advice, but I might have been asking the wrong questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlackHatHunter Posted September 24, 2014 Members Share Posted September 24, 2014 You can get an ACS-SA for far less than the range you mentioned, especially used. I gig one and I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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