Constructing ideas (instrument phrasing)

[simplygoodmusic]

So I'm sitting around, listening to a bunch of music, looking for licks to swipe. And I keep noticing that half the guitar solos out there are just random wanks. Not all, sure, but half or more.

 

Then I listen further and notice that players of almost EVERY other instrument other than guitar come up with clever, melodic and well constructed solos 90% of the time. Seriously, what the heck?

 

Is it just the way we are bred? Or is it the fact that we just seem to CRAVE showing off? Or maybe that 90% of solo guitar improv players don't have a background in playing classical pieces (including myself, I really regret saying), while most other instruments do?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a noodler as well. I just wish I could construct solos like most violin or clarinet players seem to be able to:cry:

 

On a side note, I once talked to my brother about improvising (very good violin player), and he said that he ALWAYS starts with the melody in mind. And listening to him, I gotta say, he really knows how to CONSTRUCT solos so that they go places. Guess thats a pretty big part

 

Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go and try to transcribe some Michel Portal ideas.

 

Thoughts? Or do you all think that I'm a head case?

 

P.S You GJ fans are probably gonna kill me for this, but the best, coolest licks from the Hot Club Quintet are, IMO, from Stephane. Heck, I'd even go as far as to say that Django probably learned a bunch of his most famous licks from Stephane, and just transcribed them.

[Pascal]

You're just listening to the wrong players!

 

 

In all seriousness, I think a main part of this is the "lick" culture that is probably more developped among guitar players than among other instrumentists. Which is a shame, because improvisation shouldn't be about playing a succession of licks like you would string pearls...

 

We have a lot to learn from other instruments, indeed...

 

 

 

What Portal album are you listening to, BTW? I haven't listened to him for a while...

[Scodiddly]

Guitar players don't have to stop to breathe after a few notes, they can just keep churning out the notes. Horn and wind players have to break stuff up into breathable phrases, with little pauses in between for thinking.

[Pascal]

Guitar players don't have to stop to breathe after a few notes, they can just keep churning out the notes. Horn and wind players have to break stuff up into breathable phrases, with little pauses in between for thinking.

 

If they don't want to stop to breath, they can always use circular breathing techniques and go on for tens of minutes if they want (well, reed players, at least). The endless flow of notes can also have a very striking musical effect.

[Stackabones]

Start basing all your noodling around melodies.

 

One thing I used to do (and still do), turn on the radio or youtube to any rock/jazz/pop/bossa/etc and copy/transcribe the vocalists. Don't worry about riffs or leads or guitars, just the vocal lines. Robert Plant and Mick Jagger have great phrasing, and in jazz Sinatra and Ella and Billie and Anita (oh, man) are masters. The supreme master on both vocal and instrumental sides is Louis.

 

Another cool thing to do is base all your improvs around a chord. Make an A barre (5th fret) and create lines without moving the barre. Your pinky will get a workout, and you will restrict the noodling. Move it to this A7 shape (xx7989) and do this same thing. This could open up some chord block soloing ideas (which imo restrict noodling to a certain degree).

[simplygoodmusic]

Start basing all your noodling around melodies. One thing I used to do (and still do), turn on the radio or youtube to any rock/jazz/pop/bossa/etc and copy/transcribe the vocalists. Don't worry about riffs or leads or guitars, just the vocal lines. Robert Plant and Mick Jagger have great phrasing, and in jazz Sinatra and Ella and Billie and Anita (oh, man) are masters. The supreme master on both vocal and instrumental sides is Louis. Another cool thing to do is base all your improvs around a chord. Make an A barre (5th fret) and create lines without moving the barre. Your pinky will get a workout, and you will restrict the noodling. Move it to this A7 shape (xx7989) and do this same thing. This could open up some chord block soloing ideas (which imo restrict noodling to a certain degree).

 

Part of this enlightenment came from reading a similar post by you a while ago, where I started listening to some vocalists.

 

To an extent, I had to use melodies for solos whether I liked it or not recently, because I've been drifting into styles and worlds of music which are unknown to me, and the safest way is always around the melody.

 

This is another reason I ALWAYS have more fun playing with trumpet players, violinists, sax player...etc than I do guitarists. Sure there are some great ones around, but most of them have the annoying habit of busting out a million notes per second, not listening to you, and then waiting for you to compliment them on their skill level.

 

[Stackabones]

Part of this enlightenment came from reading a similar post by you a while ago, where I started listening to some vocalists.

 

 

I don't know if you've seen this, but it's a short primer I wrote for improv. I think you probably already have a grasp of the basics.

 

When you play with other guitarists, set up limits. Some won't dig it, but some will be up to the challenge. Do things like limit your solo to three notes (or two or one) with as much rhythmic variation as possible. Or ... before you launch into a tune, assign each other a starting phrase for the solo.

 

When you get into one of those situations where the other soloist is burning, you have two options: try to keep up, or go in the opposite direction. If you try to keep up, you need to be sure your chops are better and that you can cut heads. If your chops aren't quite up to snuff (and there will always be players with better chops), then you take the path of taste and economy.

[simplygoodmusic]

This probably the first discussion of actual MUSIC and not gear on these forums for far too long. Thank god, I was about to lose hope.

 

 

When you play with other guitarists, set up limits. Some won't dig it, but some will be up to the challenge. Do things like limit your solo to three notes (or two or one) with as much rhythmic variation as possible. Or ... before you launch into a tune, assign each other a starting phrase for the solo.

 

 

Interesting... especially the setting limits thing. I just gotta find someone who would be up it... if the limits go far enough, it can actually become pretty freaking interesting. Heck, if percussionists can solo with only three sounds, I sure as heck can.

 

More than once when really bored of a situation, I have attempted to set odd limits to myself. For example solo only using triplets for a few minutes. Or only use top three string triads...etc. It isn't usually a great sounding thing, but it sure as hell beats trying to create a musical enviroment out of a failed situation.

 

Using rythmic variations has become one of my priorities as well. I've become comfortable with throwing out rhythmically odd sounding licks (I'm getting more and more worried everytime I write this word - by gosh you are right Pascal:idea:), but fitting them in in a flow is tricky. I'm working on it.

 

I have the basics, but you should probably put that primer in your sig or something...its a useful tool.

 

I need try to keep up with burning soloists UNLESS the atmosphere really calls for it. But it a lot of situations it really doesn't.

 

I have a ton more I'd like to hear and say, but for tonight, I'm off. Gonna go stand outside herbie hancock's sold out show (with Lionel Loueke!), and see if I can snag a ticket. Wish me luck!

[NotDead]

Well, it has to do with the fact that jazz, pop, rock n' roll and all variants channel largely from the work of the lieks of chuck berry, whose music comes from the chicago blues, a more melodic version of mississippi delta blues. Which is much more about delivering feeling, be it musically applicable or not, the pure talent of the players made up for that. The problem is that all modern jazz, pop, rock, and blues players aren't equal in experience, emotion, or talent to the delta bluesmen.

 

The guitar is by far the most common instrument on the planet, followed by piano, and then the violin, bass(electric, acoustic, upright), and rhythm percussion(drum sets, hand drums).

 

The guitar and to a lesser degree piano see so many players that classical training and methodology is lost to pure expression and raw connection between in instrument and player. This happens on a lesser scale with drums, violin, and to varying degrees on bass.

[Pascal]

short primer

 

"IMPROV 101

 

1. Start with a small idea (two or three notes)

2. Repeat #2

3. Add or subtract a note or two from #1

4. Repeat #3

5. Use space and silence. Try not to run ideas together.

6. Use rhythmic variation.

7. If you make a mistake, repeat it and then move on."

 

I think it's another important thing: when we improvise we often feel an urge to "play something, dammit, play something now! :eek:", and are too stressed up to let the time for an idea to seed and then develop. We feel like we have to be ready with a lick to play on beat one of that first bar.

I find that when I'm able to keep my cool, start with a silence, and maybe start from a couple of notes suggested by the rythm section, and play around with the ideas above, it becomes easier to build up something coherent over a longer time scale than just a lick or a few bars. Because the starting point is a musical idea, not a finger position or a lick. Hence the importance of good accompaniment, too. It's here to help, suggest, push, pull, etc...

 

 

Easier thing to say than to do, of course... and easier on a modal tune where you can take all your time to develop an idea than on Giant Steps where you just try to surf the wave and not get drowned too quickly.

[Stackabones]

I think it's another important thing: when we improvise we often feel an urge to "play something, dammit, play something now! :eek:", and are too stressed up to let the time for an idea to seed and then develop. We feel like we have to be ready with a lick to play on beat one of that first bar. I find that when I'm able to keep my cool, start with a silence, and maybe start from a couple of notes suggested by the rythm section, and play around with the ideas above, it becomes easier to build up something coherent over a longer time scale than just a lick or a few bars. Because the starting point is a musical idea, not a finger position or a lick. Hence the importance of good accompaniment, too. It's here to help, suggest, push, pull, etc... Easier thing to say than to do, of course... and easier on a modal tune where you can take all your time to develop an idea than on Giant Steps where you just try to surf the wave and not get drowned too quickly.

 

 

Those are great points, Pascal.

 

Concerning Giant Steps, I wonder how many times we try to out-Coltrane Coltrane on that tune? I haven't messed with it for a while, but I'm going to break out BIAB and try some simpler ideas over it to see what happens.

 

Actually, I'm not a big fan of that tune. I think he wrote better tunes, but I can understand the historic nature of what he did in terms of that tune. While the blues changes and the rhythm changes offer so much for the improviser (in terms of melodic invention, improv, and chords), the Coltrane changes seem a bit more limited to my ears. Though they offer a challenge, I feel like I'm doing math when I play through them. I don't think they have been a springboard for many tunes iirc.

[Pascal]

Concerning Giant Steps, I wonder how many times we try to out-Coltrane Coltrane on that tune? I haven't messed with it for a while, but I'm going to break out BIAB and try some simpler ideas over it to see what happens. Actually, I'm not a big fan of that tune. I think he wrote better tunes, but I can understand the historic nature of what he did in terms of that tune. While the blues changes and the rhythm changes offer so much for the improviser (in terms of melodic invention, improv, and chords), the Coltrane changes seem a bit more limited to my ears. Though they offer a challenge, I feel like I'm doing math when I play through them. I don't think they have been a springboard for many tunes iirc.

 

Oh, it was just an example... I'm not a huge fan either, and actually have never even tried to play it.

 

I'm still struggling on Summertime, so...

[simplygoodmusic]

After seeing Lionel Loueke tonight, I must say... I've got to learn to sing. The kind of effect that that has on one's improvisation must be huge!

 

And NotDead... I'm pretty sure percussions are more common than guitars!

 

Pascal and Stack, thanks for keeping a lovely interesting conversation going. I really love this thread. Probably the most helpful/interesting thread on this forum in a long while.

[Stackabones]

 

Pascal and Stack, thanks for keeping a lovely interesting conversation going. I really love this thread. Probably the most helpful/interesting thread on this forum in a long while.

 

 

Yeah, this is cool! Most of the threads will be about gear, but it's cool to know that we can branch out into other aspects of music.

[NotDead]

 

And NotDead... I'm pretty sure percussions are more common than guitars!

 

 

Think again, there's literally millions produced per year.

 

And I said rhythm percussion, that doesn't necessarily include many kinds of world percussions.

[Pascal]

One thing I used to do (and still do), turn on the radio or youtube to any rock/jazz/pop/bossa/etc and copy/transcribe the vocalists. Don't worry about riffs or leads or guitars, just the vocal lines. Robert Plant and Mick Jagger have great phrasing, and in jazz Sinatra and Ella and Billie and Anita (oh, man) are masters. The supreme master on both vocal and instrumental sides is Louis.

 

I like doing this with Chet Baker.

 

A general comment on this topic... I see listening to singers or other instrumentists as a tool to widen my horizons, not as a final goal on what my guitar playing should sound like. If you want to play like a trumpet player, just pickup the trumpet. If you want to play like a singer, drop off your guitar and sing. Each instrument has its own possibilities and limitations that have an influence on the music that is played. What we are discussing here is instrumental improvisation, which, IMHO, is the result of the interactions between a musician and an instrument. The instrument has his role to play too, and contributes to what is played. The result is not pure "inner" music turned into soundwaves. The inner music is filtered, twisted, stretched, etc,. by the instrument, by its design, tone, and by the pleasure (or difficulty) or finger gymnastics. And I like it this way.

 

I want my guitar music to sound like a musician playing a guitar.

 

 

If it makes any sense.

[simplygoodmusic]

I like doing this with Chet Baker. A general comment on this topic... I see listening to singers or other instrumentists as a tool to widen my horizons, not as a final goal on what my guitar playing should sound like. If you want to play like a trumpet player, just pickup the trumpet. If you want to play like a singer, drop off your guitar and sing. Each instrument has its own possibilities and limitations that have an influence on the music that is played. What we are discussing here is instrumental improvisation , which, IMHO, is the result of the interactions between a musician and an instrument. The instrument has his role to play too, and contributes to what is played. The result is not pure "inner" music turned into soundwaves. The inner music is filtered, twisted, stretched, etc,. by the instrument, by its design, tone, and by the pleasure (or difficulty) or finger gymnastics. And I like it this way. I want my guitar music to sound like a musician playing a guitar. If it makes any sense.

 

True and a good point. But I don't think anyone can really get "pure inner" improvisation, with the exception of singers and percussionists. But I don't think having a nice, flowing solo with an overarching theme is a limit the guitar needs to have.

 

I try not to over-think about this stuff, but I do know my improvs need something new and a new approach. And listening to more and more guitar players doesn't seem to cut it for me anymore.

 

Hey, Pat Metheny has always tried to imitate brass instruments, and many guitarists will say that his solos are the definition of guitar soloing.

 

But you are right. The guitar sounds damn good for what it is!

 

Plus, I've always had a fascination with different instruments.

[brahmz118]

Every year at this time I think about slurs. A lot. I'm arranging holiday music for flutes, and strings, and guitarists, etc. -- and my musicians have different understandings of the slur.

 

For the bowed instruments, slur = same bow stroke, no lift. For the wind instruments, slur = same breath. For the guitarist, slur = hammer-on or pull-off (i.e., only two notes are typically slurred at a time).

 

Because I come from a piano background, I have to resist using the big slurs that connect longer phrases. These types of slurs are sometimes mixed with the above technique-based slurs, but the execution is a bit more abstract and subtle. My musicians are mostly beginner to intermediate, so I keep things simple.

 

Anyway, getting to my point -- the guitarists tend to have a note-by-note mentality. The bowers and breathers already start to think ahead, and they naturally group the notes together in larger chunks. The legato effect of these instruments executing a slur is very musically distinctive. The guitarists generally need to be more advanced to create this type of linear cohesion for more than two notes in a row.

 

Have to run to work, but I will add more thoughts later.

[fmw]

Spend some time listening to jazz musicians. Joe Pass, Charlie Christian, Charlie Byrd, Wes Montgomery, Herbie Ellis - that sort of thing. I have no idea whether what they do or did will be any use to you but at least it should eliminate any belief that guitarists can't improvise.

[simplygoodmusic]

 

Have to run to work, but I will add more thoughts later.

 

 

I'm looking forward to it:thu:

[rhancox]

Fascinating stuff. I've got to learn music instead of just playing it.

[simplygoodmusic]

 

Fascinating stuff. I've got to learn music instead of just playing it.

 

 

Better to play and not learn than the vice versa;)

[Pascal]

On a lighter note I also think than the proportion of guitar players with ADD is greater than for other instrumentists. Except maybe drummers. And bassists.

 

A guitar player with ADD can learn a few licks and live happily. A violin player with ADD... he will probably drop the violin and pickup the guitar, learn a few licks and live happily.

 

The result is that most guitar players tend to concentrate on smaller time scales (lick, a few bars), and forget about the big picture.

 

I certainly know that I...WOW!, look at that sunset!

 

*runs to the window*