Members LaurentB Posted July 21, 2009 Members Share Posted July 21, 2009 Hello, On my Crafter GAE-30, most strings sound reasonably clear and well, and so does the low E-string as long as it isn't fretted. When fretted, it loses much treble and sustain. It does that also when the string is new. Since it is something especially steelstring guitars sometimes seem to suffer from, I wonder if anyone has an idea how this is caused? Would it be the structure of the neck, or maybe sooner the body that causes it, maybe the bracing of the top? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BitterPills Posted July 21, 2009 Members Share Posted July 21, 2009 Not sure. But a couple suggestions: If the action is high, or even sort of high, and the nut slots are not cut deep enough, these might cause that problem. Was playing a friends 12 string last night and it acted just as you say. Maybe the bridge isn't properly glued on the bass side. Good question. I notice the difference in sustain with open vs fretted on my guitars, but not so much I feel like it's a problem. On one, the second octave F note has no sustain at all, just a quick short clunk and the note is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LaurentB Posted July 21, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2009 But the nut wouldn't influence the sound of a fretted string, or would it? With single notes having a dead sound, it's often a matter of resonance I find. Often the low G wil have a strong resonance and no sustain. That's also the case with this guitar, even more so than with the other notes on the low E string. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BitterPills Posted July 21, 2009 Members Share Posted July 21, 2009 The question of the nut factoring in tone is controversial, it seems. I can't see or play your guitar so I can't say I know anything for sure. What I was refering to, is guitars with hard action due in part to the nut, often have shorter sustain when fretted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LaurentB Posted July 21, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2009 The question of the nut factoring in tone is controversial, it seems.I can't see or play your guitar so I can't say I know anything for sure. What I was refering to, is guitars with hard action due in part to the nut, often have shorter sustain when fretted. Ah, I see, yes. I'm not ruling anything out completely, mind you. I once studied mechanical engineering, and one thing I remembered is that mechanical problems like these very easily grow too complicated to just assume anything, or rule out anything for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted July 21, 2009 Members Share Posted July 21, 2009 Does it depend on where you fret it, or does it happen all the way up the neck? Article on dead spots here:http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_fix_dead_spots_on_a_guitar And from the ref in that article:http://www.acoustics.org/press/137th/fleischer.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LaurentB Posted July 21, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2009 Does it depend on where you fret it, or does it happen all the way up the neck?Article on dead spots here:http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_fix_dead_spots_on_a_guitarAnd from the ref in that article:http://www.acoustics.org/press/137th/fleischer.html Well, everything from the 3rd fret onwards, I just checked. Ah, interesting articles, although actually about solid bodies. I once managed to get rid of a dead spot on the high f# on the e-string by taping a metal weight to te back of the neck. I also like one of the advises to fix the problem in the first article: "Replace the guitar." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted July 21, 2009 Members Share Posted July 21, 2009 I'm just a noob, but that sounds more like an issue with the action to me. I'd check the neck relief. http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/trussrods.htm If it seems fine, I'd sell the guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LaurentB Posted July 21, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2009 I'm just a noob, but that sounds more like an issue with the action to me. I'd check the neck relief. http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/trussrods.htm If it seems fine, I'd sell the guitar. The string doesn't rattle against the frets, so that isn't the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted July 21, 2009 Members Share Posted July 21, 2009 Go here and follow the instructions.If you do that you will know if something is out of whack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LaurentB Posted July 21, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2009 Go here and follow the instructions.If you do that you will know if something is out of whack. Ah thanks! I knew there was that link, but couldn't find it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members seagullplayer77 Posted July 22, 2009 Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 The question of the nut factoring in tone is controversial, it seems. The nut only comes into play on open notes. Once you fret a string, the nut no longer has any appreciable effect on the tone of that string because the the string between the nut and your fretting finger isn't producing sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted July 22, 2009 Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 I'd check to make sure that that string has a decent amount of angle as it passes over the bridge saddle - I've seen several cases where the low E wasn't exerting much downward force due to the saddle being lowered to improve the action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Melodeous Posted July 22, 2009 Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 I'm thinking if the saddle is properly seated and there are no loose braces inside the guitar then you simply have a low-end deficient tone box. I've played many guitars like that but never a Crafter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted July 22, 2009 Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 The nut only comes into play on open notes. Once you fret a string, the nut no longer has any appreciable effect on the tone of that string because the the string between the nut and your fretting finger isn't producing sound. Read this thread, especialy the posts of a member called "Octavedoctor" a page or two in.http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=1238790 Here's Octavedoctor's website.http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LaurentB Posted July 22, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 Read this thread, especialy the posts of a member called "Octavedoctor" a page or two in.http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=1238790Here's Octavedoctor's website.http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/ Now THAT's interesting! It seems to confirm BitterPill's suggestion that even with a fretted note the nut does make a difference. (A summary: in that thread JT experiments with a piece of carton between the string and the nut, then frets that string and does hear a difference, contrarily to what he expected). It is exactly one of the counterintuitive things I was speaking of when I said that I've learned not to just assume or rule out anything based on seemingly logical assumptions, when talking about mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LaurentB Posted July 22, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 I'm thinking if the saddle is properly seated and there are no loose braces inside the guitar then you simply have a low-end deficient tone box. I've played many guitars like that but never a Crafter. Well, my Crafter, like the other ones I tested in 2002, surely doesn't have a loud low-end. But: it's especially the sustain on the low E-string, beyond the 3rd fret that's really bad, in comparison with notes on the A string. But indeed, the only remedy may be to replace the guitar, haha (I AM still building that Stewart-MacDonald kit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rickoshea Posted July 22, 2009 Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 Now THAT's interesting! It seems to confirm BitterPill's suggestion that even with a fretted note the nut does make a difference.(A summary: in that thread JT experiments with a piece of carton between the string and the nut, then frets that string and does hear a difference, contrarily to what he expected).It is exactly one of the counterintuitive things I was speaking of when I said that I've learned not to just assume or rule out anything based on seemingly logical assumptions, when talking about mechanics. theres a thing called "behind the fret buzz" .... now surely if a string can buzz behind where it's fretted (ie. towards the nut) then the nut must have an influence on fretted strings? Here's a snip from thbecker.net : The low neck relief may cause behind-the-fret buzz. Behind-the-fret buzz occurs when you fret a string at fret x (with your finger or with a capo), and then the "dead part" of the string between the string nut and fret x buzzes on one or more of the frets below fret x. One of the things that neck relief does is to prevent this buzzing by creating a tiny gap between the "dead part" of the string and the frets beneath it. So if you have less than .010'' of neck relief and notice behind-the-fret buzz, it's back to the truss rod: increase your neck relief a tad, and go through the remaining steps of the setup (saddle height and nut slot depths) again. It is of course also possible to counteract behind-the-fret buzz by leaving the first fret action a bit higher, that is, by having less nut slot depth. But the consequences of a higher first fret action are so unpleasant that I very much doubt you want to go for that option. The bottom line is that the .010'' neck relief is hard to beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LaurentB Posted July 22, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 theres a thing called "behind the fret buzz" .... now surely if a string can buzz behind where it's fretted (ie. towards the nut) then the nut must have an influence on fretted strings? There may be something in that to. Anyway, in the past I already changed the truss rod setup and the saddle height (and changed it for a bone one), but that doesn't influence this particular problem (although playability and sound in general was somewhat improved). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rickoshea Posted July 22, 2009 Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 Well, my Crafter, like the other ones I tested in 2002, surely doesn't have a loud low-end. But: it's especially the sustain on the low E-string, beyond the 3rd fret that's really bad, in comparison with notes on the A string. But indeed, the only remedy may be to replace the guitar, haha (I AM still building that Stewart-MacDonald kit). should have bought a DLX-3000S/K , mine has a big low end Are you getting plenty of downward pressure on the saddle with the low E?, if you can lift the string while its under tension even a tiny bit off the saddle then you don't have enough. Maybe a contributing factor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LaurentB Posted July 22, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 should have bought a DLX-3000S/K , mine has a big low end Are you getting plenty of downward pressure on the saddle with the low E?, if you can lift the string while its under tension even a tiny bit off the saddle then you don't have enough. Maybe a contributing factor Now you mention it: this generation of Crafters didn't have bridge pins, but simply holes in the bridge through which the strings were fixed, resulting in a bit less steep break angle of the string. On more recent models they switched to bridge pins again. I've always wondered how much of a difference that would make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rickoshea Posted July 22, 2009 Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 maybe thats a factor then? .... logically if the note has little sustain then the transferance of vibration to the top is maybe being cut short via the saddle? You could try popping in a taller saddle and seeing if you still have the problem - if you still do that will at least rule out a saddle issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted July 22, 2009 Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 Have you done the measurements yet?Reason I'm asking is, it seems very much like the E may be too close to the first fret when that string is fretted leading me to believe there may be a nut cut too deep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LaurentB Posted July 22, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 Have you done the measurements yet?Reason I'm asking is, it seems very much like the E may be too close to the first fret when that string is fretted leading me to believe there may be a nut cut too deep. Well, the setup of saddle and relief is about right, but I just measured the space between the first fret and strings with a capo at the second fret, and indeed there is no space at all. So you think that a too deeply cut nut could cause this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted July 22, 2009 Members Share Posted July 22, 2009 Yes.As an experiment, loosen the string enough to slide a tiny piece of tin foil into the slot. You may have to add a couple of them but it will raise the string VS that first fret. Then, tune up and try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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