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Bridge Pins vs. Tailpiece - Pros & Cons


gull12

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Several years back, I had the misfortune of witnessing a bridge letting go on a 12-string. Not a pretty sight. The first thing I heard was a popping sound, then a series of small 'cracks', and then KAPOW; the whole thing took off with a 'twang-pwong' toward the headstock. The release of energy was so violent that it pulled the fretboard up off the top of the guitar by about 1/8" and loosened the neck joint - not to mention the huge bruise on the wrist of the guy who was playing it at the time. :eek:

 

Since that time, I've often wondered if a tailpiece might be the way to go.

Does anyone have any experience with tailpieces, the pros and cons? Would one have to alter the bracing in any way? How does it affect sound, tone, etc.? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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Leadbelly would probably vote for the tailpiece. I'm not sure why he tailpiece fell out of favor. Harder to change strings? Not as efficient sound transfer to the top? Old fashioned looking? Conspiracy by bridge pin makers?

 

It would be cool to watch a 12 string fly apart as you did. ;)

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A tailpiece would definitely take tension off the bridge. It would also reduce both the magnitude and the direction of the forces applied to the top. My guess is that it would basically cut volume in half.

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A tailpiece would definitely take tension off the bridge. It would also reduce both the magnitude and the direction of the forces applied to the top. My guess is that it would basically cut volume in half.

 

 

My thoughts exactly. My main concern is whether the tailpiece, because of the very way it works, would hamper the strings from adequately transferring their energy through the bridge to the top of the guitar. Surely it would cut down on volume, but the big mystery, in my mind, is tone. Being that the tailpiece is mounted on the end of the guitar, wouldn't a great deal of the strings' energy be transferred to the sides of the guitar? I've seen many beautiful 12-strings with tailpieces. I just never got a chance to listen to them. I wish I would have. Thank you very much for your comments.

 

Yes, watching a 12-string self-destruct was cool........for about 1/100 of a second, then it wasn't. What a mess.

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The only 12 strings I've ever seen with tailpieces were the old 30s models used by the blues guys. Flat plywood tops and loud because of the heavy strings they used. Tailpieces on 6 string flat tops were pretty common back then too, probably because they were cheaper to build. They definitely helped keep those old 12 string monsters in one piece. We've got light gauge strings now and solid, braced tops that project sound much better so we don't need the extra strength of the tailpiece. The occasional fatality is acceptable.

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My old Gretsch Electromatic was one fine git. I loved playing it and the tail-piece was never an issue. The guitar's adjustable bridge was really nice and it held tune really well. I still think fondly of the curly maple back and sides and solid spruce top. The only thing bad was the vintage pickup was really prone to feedback... but the tone.

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Since the ball ends of steel strings on a pinned bridged guitar actually anchor at the point of the bridge plate beneath the bridge, I think it's pretty rare that a bridge would pop off like that from string tension. Maybe more likely if it was a "pinless bridge"...but usually 12 strings don't use those.

 

A tailpiece DOES reduce stress on the soundboard, though...and the merit of using one on a 12 string would be that the top might not "belly" as easy resulting in difficult playing. Actually the top is being "pressed" instead of "pulled"...and the thought is that any top sinking might compesate for the neck bowing..resulting in a guitar that will last a lot longer before needing a reset.

 

The negative on a guitar with a tailpiece is that by having less tension on the soundboard, the sound might not be as loud...and some purists might insist that if you're going to use a tailpiece, the top really should have an arch in it to prevent the top failing and also to increase the load on the soundboard with a greater break angle....but then you're getting into a different instrument design.

 

The most popular design for a 12 string would be a flattop with a standard pinned bridge. I'd probably go with that myself. One thing I've noticed: Smaller boddied 12 string guitars sometimes have better bass for some reason. Maybe it's something to do with projection...I don't know.

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I guess what it all boils down to is a mental block. After seeing that happen, I have always been a little gun-shy about the bridge area of a twelve. 250 pounds of straight pull on a couple of square inches of wood no more than 1/8" thick. Not to mention that all that pull is running WITH the grain. Not too reassuring.

 

I would strongly suggest to all those who play twelves or use heavier strings to keep a close eye on the bridge section of your guitars. Maybe every time you change your strings. I've been told that even a minor bump against something can loosen things up. If you see even the slightest gap, get thyself to a luthier. :thu:

 

The tailpiece is something that I will definitely think about for the future. You have all given me some good points to think about. Thank you all for the great answers and suggestions.

 

(I was able to see this bridge failure happen because he was playing lead on a song I wasn't all that familiar with, and I was watching his chords.)

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I have four guitars with tailpieces, as well as a mandolin, and several with pinned bridges. From an engineering standpoint, they work in completely different fashions to "make sound". We talk about the top of a guitar "vibrating" and think of the bridge/saddle somehow making it move up and down, but in reality a pinned bridge "rocks" the top. When the string is plucked it's tension alternately increases and decreases, which pulls the end of the string. Think of the little piece of string behind the saddle as a guy wire on a telephone pole and the saddle as a fulcrum - the oscillating string pulls the fulcrum and guy wire, pulling the area behind the saddle up and forcing the area between the saddle and sound hole down. The top rocks around the axis of the bridge.

 

This creates very complex movement of the top - all of the dipoles that luthiers like to analyze with their glitter patterns, and means that the top has multiple frequencies or "modes". It also explains why from and engineering standpoint the X brace makes so much sense structurally - the crossing of the X is in the weakest part of the top. By the way, the guy wire action of the pins also does mean the bridgeplate is pulled tightly up against the top - is is very unlikely that the tension will somehow "tear the bridge off"

 

Contrast that with a floating bridge instrument like a ladder braced guitar, an archtop, a mandolin or violin, or a resonator. In this case the tension of the string is anchored to the tailpiece and the break angle over the saddle creates a component directly into the saddle - thus the top actually does vibrate up and down (the best example of that is a resonator cone - there can be very little rocking and almost all of the movement is straight up and down. This means that there are less modes of vibration, which should mean less harmonics and less complexity. I think that is very true of ladder braced instruments - listen to an old Stella compared to a Martin.

 

This is also why tail piece instruments are rarely X braced (some archtops are) and that simple ladders or no bracing at all (violins and mandos have "tone bars only") work so well. It is also why setting up a tailpiece instrument often involves getting the break angle correct over the saddle (and of course, why most of them have notched saddles to set the string spacing).

 

Roger Siminoff has a good description on the difference between what he calls fixed (pinned) and floating (tailpiece) bridges in his book on tap tuning. And here are two of my examples - a ladder braced tailpiece 12 string and an X braced pinned bridge one. Clips at the Annex

 

IMG_1883-1.jpg

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I would strongly suggest to all those who play twelves or use heavier strings to keep a close eye on the bridge section of your guitars. Maybe every time you change your strings. I've been told that even a minor bump against something can loosen things up. If you see even the slightest gap, get thyself to a luthier.
:thu:

The tailpiece is something that I will definitely think about for the future. You have all given me some good points to think about. Thank you all for the great answers and suggestions.


(I was able to see this bridge failure happen because he was playing lead on a song I wasn't all that familiar with, and I was watching his chords.)

 

I run very heavy strings on my long scale ladder braced 12 - 13 to 56 and of course Huddie Leadbetter used something like 16 - 60. Leadbelly's guitar is just fine after all these years (the story about the old Stella's some how exploding is really a myth). Now my D12-28, which all its life until I got it was strung with lights and tuned to concert not only had a loose bridge and big belly, but also needed a neck reset. And my OM 12 was carefully designed internally with a third tone bar and a thicker top - I run mediums on it tuned down two half steps.

 

Its all a matter of understanding what your guitar was designed for- which I think I do.

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I run very heavy strings on my long scale ladder braced 12 - 13 to 56 and of course Huddie Leadbetter used something like 16 - 60. Leadbelly's guitar is just fine after all these years (the story about the old Stella's some how exploding is really a myth). Now my D12-28, which all its life until I got it was strung with lights and tuned to concert not only had a loose bridge and big belly, but also needed a neck reset. And my OM 12 was carefully designed internally with a third tone bar and a thicker top - I run mediums on it tuned down two half steps.


Its all a matter of understanding what your guitar was designed for- which I think I do.

 

 

I believe it was you who posted a photo of a smaller-bodied twelve with a tailpiece that you had built. That was the guitar that got me thinking along these lines.

Beautiful guitar, by the way.

 

The guitar in question was an older Madeira twelve that spent most of its life in the front seat of a pickup truck. The guitar had several small cracks in the top; one running from the bridge to the tail. When the bridge let go, inspection of the area revealed that the bridge pin holes were somewhat elongated and there were splinters pulled up through the holes from the bottom of the top. There was also a hunk of wood about the size of a silver dollar pulled up with it. I can't explain it from an engineering standpoint because I only have an average knowledge of physics.

 

Your description of the bracing patterns tells me that a tailpiece probably wouldn't be the best bet for a Seagull 12.

 

Thank you for your in-depth response and the very best to you.

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There are X braced guitars with tailpieces, I just don't have any experience with them. Here are my 36 strings

 

IMG_2024.jpg

 

and the workin' end of the ladder braced one

 

IMG_2014.jpg

 

Frankly, you could easily try a tailpiece on your Seagull - it would require drilling one hole that could be a strap button or a jack. Oh, one minor problem, 12 string tail pieces are a bit scarce

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What beautiful guitars! I believe it was the one on the far right that caught my eye. You posted a picture of that guitar a while back and I fell in love with it then, and again now. You do beautiful work.

 

I think I'm going to put the tailpiece idea on hold and just play what I have for now. You're right, they seem to be rare and, I would imagine, rather expensive.

 

I want to thank you all for helping me. It's so nice to have a place to come where one can ask these questions and get knowledgeable answers. Freeman, if I ever win the lottery I'm coming to see you! Thanks again.

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What beautiful guitars! I believe it was the one on the far right that caught my eye. You posted a picture of that guitar a while back and I fell in love with it then, and again now. You do beautiful work.


I think I'm going to put the tailpiece idea on hold and just play what I have for now. You're right, they seem to be rare and, I would imagine, rather expensive.


I want to thank you all for helping me. It's so nice to have a place to come where one can ask these questions and get knowledgeable answers. Freeman, if I ever win the lottery I'm coming to see you! Thanks again.

 

 

Mike, you don't have to win the lottery to come see me, I live in central washington and make frequent trips to the Portland area where I have family. Maybe next time I come down I can throw the Stella clone in the car and hook up with you - give you a chance to play it.

 

I happen to be a big fan of the Seagull 12 strings - I've always felt they were one of the best bang for the bucks out there. I've been a little apprehensive of cedar top but I know one player down in Louisiana who has had one for several year and loves it.

 

 

Going back to your original post - I don't know why that guitar exploded (imploded?) but it sounds like major structural failure that could have happened for lots of reasons. Many 12 string players don't think about the strings, tensions, tuning etc, and unfortunately, some 12 string builder don't either. My D12-28 has exactly the same bracing and top thickness as a standard D28, yet half again the tension if tuned to concert with lights (10's). After 25 years the top was starting to rotate up, the bridge had slightly pulled loose, the neck joint was rotating in - but a simple reset and regluing the bridge fixed that. At that time I actually had a lighter bridgeplate put in it - you would think that would make the problem worse, but it sure improved the sound.

 

Taylor uses a thicker top plate and adds a third tone bar to their 12's - and the NT neck is much easier to reset. As you know the Kottke sig is designed for very heavy strings (and down tuning) - ironically it is the most heavily scalloped of the Taylors (again, you would think that would weaken them). My OM 12 has a lot of Taylor influence inside it.

 

Lastly, if you really wanted to compare tailpiece to pinned bridge, go to Fraulini.com and listen to Paul Geremia playing some of Todd's beautiful guitars. They are all ladder braced so they will have that boxy old time sound, but Todd builds both styles of bridges - you should be able to get some sense of the difference. And of course, Paul is one of the great modern 12 string blues players. If you go to the page on Fraulini setups you'll see that 12 strings don't have to be tuned to pitch and strung the way we usually think.

 

I also assume that you listen to other 12 string player who don't necessarily tune the "normal" way - Leadbelly, Willie McTell, Pete Seeger, Kottke of course, Art Sulger, Chris Proctor - all of these have been big influences on what I'm trying to do.

 

As someone said, the 12 string is the grand piano of the guitar world.

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I run very heavy strings on my long scale ladder braced 12 - 13 to 56 and of course Huddie Leadbetter used something like 16 - 60. Leadbelly's guitar is just fine after all these years (the story about the old Stella's some how exploding is really a myth). Now my D12-28, which all its life until I got it was strung with lights and tuned to concert not only had a loose bridge and big belly, but also needed a neck reset. And my OM 12 was carefully designed internally with a third tone bar and a thicker top - I run mediums on it tuned down two half steps.


Its all a matter of understanding what your guitar was designed for- which I think I do.

 

 

Great post Freeman! Haven't heard much from you lately.

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Mike, you don't have to win the lottery to come see me, I live in central washington and make frequent trips to the Portland area where I have family. Maybe next time I come down I can throw the Stella clone in the car and hook up with you - give you a chance to play it.


I happen to be a big fan of the Seagull 12 strings - I've always felt they were one of the best bang for the bucks out there. I've been a little apprehensive of cedar top but I know one player down in Louisiana who has had one for several year and loves it.



Going back to your original post - I don't know why that guitar exploded (imploded?) but it sounds like major structural failure that could have happened for lots of reasons. Many 12 string players don't think about the strings, tensions, tuning etc, and unfortunately, some 12 string builder don't either. My D12-28 has exactly the same bracing and top thickness as a standard D28, yet half again the tension if tuned to concert with lights (10's). After 25 years the top was starting to rotate up, the bridge had slightly pulled loose, the neck joint was rotating in - but a simple reset and regluing the bridge fixed that. At that time I actually had a lighter bridgeplate put in it - you would think that would make the problem worse, but it sure improved the sound.


Taylor uses a thicker top plate and adds a third tone bar to their 12's - and the NT neck is much easier to reset. As you know the Kottke sig is designed for very heavy strings (and down tuning) - ironically it is the most heavily scalloped of the Taylors (again, you would think that would weaken them). My OM 12 has a lot of Taylor influence inside it.


Lastly, if you really wanted to compare tailpiece to pinned bridge, go to Fraulini.com and listen to Paul Geremia playing some of Todd's beautiful guitars. They are all ladder braced so they will have that boxy old time sound, but Todd builds both styles of bridges - you should be able to get some sense of the difference. And of course, Paul is one of the great modern 12 string blues players. If you go to the page on Fraulini setups you'll see that 12 strings don't have to be tuned to pitch and strung the way we usually think.


I also assume that you listen to other 12 string player who don't necessarily tune the "normal" way - Leadbelly, Willie McTell, Pete Seeger, Kottke of course, Art Sulger, Chris Proctor - all of these have been big influences on what I'm trying to do.


As someone said, the 12 string is the grand piano of the guitar world.

 

 

What a nice offer! I would really love to get together sometime! During the next four months, I have several spinal surgeries to go through, but after that is over and everything is relatively healed up, maybe we can put something together. I would dearly love to see that little guitar! I would imagine that you are miles ahead of me in talent; I 'pick at it' more than I pick. For me, it's my second reality. When things get too hectic, I pick up the guitar and disappear for awhile. Great way to spend a rainy afternoon and, as you well know, we have many rainy afternoons. I'll tell you what, is it OK to PM you when the time is good?

 

You have given me many things to think about here, and I really appreciate your help. All of you have helped me. I am so happy to see 1.0 getting back up on it's feet. IMHO, the people here are so much more interesting than on the other forums. Thanks again to all of you. God Bless.

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What a nice offer! I would really love to get together sometime! During the next four months, I have several spinal surgeries to go through, but after that is over and everything is relatively healed up, maybe we can put something together. I would dearly love to see that little guitar! I would imagine that you are miles ahead of me in talent; I 'pick at it' more than I pick. For me, it's my second reality. When things get too hectic, I pick up the guitar and disappear for awhile. Great way to spend a rainy afternoon and, as you well know, we have many rainy afternoons. I'll tell you what, is it OK to PM you when the time is good?


You have given me many things to think about here, and I really appreciate your help. All of you have helped me. I am so happy to see 1.0 getting back up on it's feet. IMHO, the people here are so much more interesting than on the other forums. Thanks again to all of you. God Bless.

 

 

It would be fun. Since you are interested in 12 strings, let me suggest the 12 String Cafe', even tho it is associated with the Martin forum they do let others come around

 

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/forums/7

 

There are a couple of othe 12 string forums, but I like this one the best.

 

And while I consider myself a pretty crappy player, I did post a few clips of both the OM12 and the Stella clone at the Annex. Take a listen but don't laugh too much.

 

Also, I'll PM you my e-mail addy. I tend to wander away from this place, sometime for a few months at a time, so if there is a good time to get together it would be better to e-mail. I will probably be down sometime in June and in August for sure. Good luck with your back - I've been thru it too.

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