Members schandmann Posted January 6, 2012 Members Share Posted January 6, 2012 Hi there,I currently have a line on a Yamaha FG450S.Now I know that the older laminated Yamaha acoustics are highly regarded and everyone on here seems to love the newer solid top FGs, but it's kind of hard to find info on the 450S.It's a solid top, obviously, made in Taiwan sometime in the mid 80s, but that's all I know.How do these compare to Yamahas newer line-up and what would be a fair price for one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members schandmann Posted January 7, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 7, 2012 Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FretFiend. Posted January 7, 2012 Members Share Posted January 7, 2012 Where are all the Yamaha experts when you need them? Have you looked at it, and played it? How is the action? Do the strings sit pretty high off the fingerboard, up the neck toward the twelfth fret? How much of the saddle is still showing above the bridge? Is there any evidence of "bellying", bulging around the bridge area? How straight is the neck? What is the condition of the frets? It is an eighties vintage guitar. 20 plus years of string tension and use have likely taken a toll on it. Worst of all, the neck joint may have yielded some to this tension. If so, the guitar needs a neck set... a very expensive proposition. Those old Yamahas can be nice guitars, but if they have problems like these, they are heartbreakers. Unless you can be assured that the guitar is sound, walk away from it and find something newer. I'm not really qualified to say much about value other than a guess. In good playable condition, it might be worth two, two fifty. If it has above mentioned problems, a hundred or so, tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members schandmann Posted January 7, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 7, 2012 I found the guitar in the classifieds online so sadly no, I can't look at it in person.Waiting for some photos of all the significant details at the moment and I'll take your warning to heart and request as much info as possible.The seller isn't a guitar player so maybe I can work out a nice price in light of the risks I take by buying such an old guitar sight unseen from a person who couldn't tell if anything was wrong with it. Is it really that likely that the guitar might be unplayable? I always thought only the really old laminated Yamahas had a reputation for {censored}ty playability because the material and glue used were cheap. Are all Yamahas notorious for the necks warping with time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bluzboy Posted January 7, 2012 Members Share Posted January 7, 2012 From the Yamaha database: SPECIFICATIONS: FG450S No Model Entered...Year(s) Sold: 1985-89 Original MSRP(US$): $419.00 Top: Solid Spruce Back / Sides: Ovangkol Neck: Nato Fingerboard: Indian Rosewood Bridge: Indian Rosewood Color(s): Natural Tuners: Chrome Notes: Dove Logo, Switched to Leaf Logo in 87 I'm guessing the seller won't be able to tell you much; try getting a few neck profile photos. OTOH, 20 years is nothing for a Yamaha. They're built like tanks. Odds are, if it wasn't badly mistreated, left outside in the rain, or used as a chew toy, it's going to be playable. It may need a setup, but assuming the neck is OK, it could be a great guitar. I've owned similar, MIT, solid-top models from that period (FG-750S and FG-411S). Both were terrific players. Still prefer my older FG-180 and FG-200, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FretFiend. Posted January 7, 2012 Members Share Posted January 7, 2012 A guitar with neck joint problems is still "playable" I guess, but fretting the strings above the first few frets will be difficult because of the abnormal string height caused by the neck joint problems. It's not so much neck warping as it is the neck joint itself yielding or bending under the pressure of six strings pulling on it continuously for over twenty years. It usually costs a minimum of $350 to reset a neck. Additionally, Yamaha guitars were put together with epoxy glue that can't be removed by the usual procedures, and this severely complicates repair attempts. You can see that there is little wisdom in spending more money on repairs than the guitar is worth. Problems like these can happen to any guitar. The older the guitar, the more likely problems are. I don't want to be too discouraging. It might be a great old guitar. It pays to make sure though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members schandmann Posted January 7, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 7, 2012 Problems like these can happen to any guitar. The older the guitar, the more likely problems are.OK, I gotcha. Is there any way to diagnose problems like this over the web? Anything apart from the basics that I could ask for or request photos of?I mean, I know buying the thing over the internet isn't the wisest move, but I at least want to do everything I can to be as certain as possible I'm not getting a piece of trash here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yamaneck Posted January 7, 2012 Members Share Posted January 7, 2012 OK, I gotcha. Is there any way to diagnose problems like this over the web? Anything apart from the basics that I could ask for or request photos of?I mean, I know buying the thing over the internet isn't the wisest move, but I at least want to do everything I can to be as certain as possible I'm not getting a piece of trash here. Ask the seller for photographs clearly showing the action height at the 12th fret, and the height of the saddle above the bridge. High action and a low saddle means it needs a neck reset. The very best way to tell, is to lay a straightedge on the frets with the strings on, tuned to pitch; the straightedge needs to be long enough to touch the bridge. It should land right on top of the bridge body, or just a hair below. Anymore, when I do Yamaha neck resets, I saw the neck off the body with a Japanese pullsaw, after loosening the fingerboard tongue, and convert it to a bolt-on.A problem with these later, 80's Yamahas, is the very heavy finish, which has to be scored all the way through to the wood, or it wall crack off in chunks, getting the neck out, though this is mitigated a good bit when doing a saw-off reset. Here's some photos of a reset on an FG180: http://s294.photobucket.com/albums/mm91/yundev/FG180%20reset/?action=view¤t=PB180180.jpg#!oZZ3QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs294.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fmm91%2Fyundev%2FFG180%2520reset%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DPB170165.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yamaneck Posted January 7, 2012 Members Share Posted January 7, 2012 I always thought only the really old laminated Yamahas had a reputation for {censored}ty playability because the material and glue used were cheap. Wrong. Are all Yamahas notorious for the necks warping with time? No, but they are notorious for having to have neck resets, which have nothing to do with neck bow or trussrods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted January 7, 2012 Members Share Posted January 7, 2012 My brother and I use 2 FG450SA dreads as our main "purely acoustic" guitars in our duo. They're basically an FG450S with abalone binding. They sound beautiful and really fill a room in terms of volume. I made a few changes to ours, like bone nut and saddle, plus I ramped the bridge slots to get a good break angle to drive the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members schandmann Posted January 7, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 7, 2012 Requested photos of everything you guys told me to, thanks! I'll post them as soon as they arrive. Fingers crossed it's in good shape, seems like it could be a great guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members schandmann Posted January 8, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 8, 2012 OK, here's the pictures: http://imgur.com/a/n0DO4/all#0 Do those look okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted January 8, 2012 Members Share Posted January 8, 2012 Pix no work for me? The main thing I look for is the bound headstock and rosewood overlay. They also have black painted rosewood bridges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members schandmann Posted January 8, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 8, 2012 Do they work now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FretFiend. Posted January 8, 2012 Members Share Posted January 8, 2012 Those pictures don't tell the full story, but they are probably the best you are going to get. Based on what I see there, the guitar looks to be in pretty good shape. Maybe not perfect, but not bad. The strings look a wee bit high at the twelfth fret, but not too bad. And there appears to be plenty of material at the saddle. A good setup by a guitar tech would probably make a good player out of that. But don't take my word for it. Wait and see what Yamaneck thinks. What is the seller asking for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members schandmann Posted January 8, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 8, 2012 Well that's a relief. Hope Yamaneck chimes in to resolve all doubt.She's asking 250, but I think (or hope) I can talk her down some more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guildfire Posted January 8, 2012 Members Share Posted January 8, 2012 Offer $200 and go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members katopp Posted January 8, 2012 Members Share Posted January 8, 2012 Even though Yammies are set notoriously low, this one is -IMHO- borderline.Not yet in need of a neck reset, but not too far away from it.The ruler has a rounded edge and if I (try to) extrapolate, where it hits the bridge, I would say it's halfway down...But then, at $200, you lower the saddle and if things get worse, you slot the bridge and shave it a few mil. No biggie and good for another few years.Then you may give it to thermal recycling.But all in all, it looks like a nice guitar, not too run down and in good shape. Get it, play the heck out of it, but don't consider it being or becoming a family heirloom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yamaneck Posted January 8, 2012 Members Share Posted January 8, 2012 Well that's a relief. Hope Yamaneck chimes in to resolve all doubt.She's asking 250, but I think (or hope) I can talk her down some more. Hard to tell, with the rounded end of the ruler. Is it below the front edge of the bridge body? EDIT: Plenty of saddle. It may need a reset someday (very likely), but not today. These often go for nearly twice that on ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted January 8, 2012 Members Share Posted January 8, 2012 Looks to me like the ruler hits maybe 1/16" below the top of the saddle. Not ideal but not bad. The neck angle on our daughter's Epi is similar. Dunno that I'd offer much more than $150 at the outside but that's just me. An '87 FG450S went for upwards of $300 on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1987-Yamaha-FG-450S-solid-top-acoustic-guitar-case-and-electronic-tuner-/300640901847?pt=Guitar&hash=item45ff981ad7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FretFiend. Posted January 8, 2012 Members Share Posted January 8, 2012 Looks like it is a bit of a gamble. You have to ask yourself one question, "Do I feel lucky?" Well do ya, punk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members katopp Posted January 8, 2012 Members Share Posted January 8, 2012 Looks like it is a bit of a gamble. You have to ask yourself one question, "Do I feel lucky?" Well do ya, punk? But this ain't a 44 Magnum and it's no longer the world's most powerful handgun. And Dirty Harry in another cut on the range said that he doesn't feed it with Magnum rounds either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bluzboy Posted January 8, 2012 Members Share Posted January 8, 2012 Photos may not be definitive, but it seems to be in very good shape, IMHO--action still looks good, lots of saddle, no signs of abuse. I say go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Neal Posted January 9, 2012 Members Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'm with bb up above. Action looka real respectable, and there's plenty of saddle, no neck reset in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members schandmann Posted January 9, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 9, 2012 She won't go down any further on the price, so I think I'll pass. It also seems to be in need of some fretwork and I don't want this guitar to become a money pit. Thanks anyway to all of you, you've really helped me here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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