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Avoiding a neck reset on a cheap guitar


Grant Harding

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I have a trick that I've used on a few cheap Yamaha acoustics (steel and classical) that somebody may find useful (or sacreligious).

 

The trick is to ramp the bridge right up to the slot, then continue the ramp on the front side of the slot, so the bridge saddle can happilly be shaved down to the level of the top of the bridge (or even below!). I suspect it might couple the strings to the top better too, since there's less saddle for the energy to travel through. It always sounds good to me.

 

The risk I guess is that you're altering the guitar permanently, so I wouldn't suggest doing this to a fine instrument that's been built to accomodate a neck reset. But this is a really quick fix for a $50 Yamaha with an epoxyed neck.

 

If you do it on a classical you'll probably need to use knots or ball-end strings to increase the break-angle vs the stardard tying method.

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I had to do something like that with my Tacoma jumbo which was not happy with the Thai climate. Top bulged up, so lowered the bridge. Even had to file a couple of slots in front of bridge for string clearance. Plays just fine now.

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that will work but is still not addressing the problem... sooner or later you are gonna end up with an "S" shaped, unplayable instrument... in stewmac if you look hard enough you will find a thing called the JLD bridge doctor...bridge doctor link... it is cheap, it addresses the cause of the problem and is basically the same thing used by breedlove in their guitars... i saw a vintage 12 string alvarez... 1972 that was about 9 months pregnant, become a perfectly playable instrument without a neck reset... if you contact the man who made this thing he may cut you a better deal than stewmac... ;) but even at their price it's cheap and beyond that it works...

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that will work but is still not addressing the problem... sooner or later you are gonna end up with an "S" shaped, unplayable instrument... in stewmac if you look hard enough you will find a thing called the JLD bridge doctor... i saw a vintage 12 string alvarez... 1972 that was about 9 months pregnant, become a perfectly playable instrument without a neck reset...

 

If the problem is neck angle, a Bridge Doctor won't do anything at all. In the same vein, if the problem is belly bulge, a neck reset won't solve the problem. A tourniquet won't do anything for a toothache and aspririn won't stop bleeding. The trick (which is no trick at all) is to use the appropriate solution depending on the problem.

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If the problem is
neck angle,
a Bridge Doctor won't do anything at all. In the same vein, if the problem is belly bulge, a neck reset won't solve the problem. A tourniquet won't do anything for a toothache and aspririn won't stop bleeding. The trick (which is no trick at all) is to use the appropriate solution depending on the problem.

 

sorry there, Depends... but i thought my explanation was plain enough to understand... please excuse the hell out of me for trying to pass along any information not deemed appropriate by you as being fit for this forum without some sort of ridicule being attached by some self appointed overlord... to extrapolate further upon your analogy: not only will aspirin not staunch the flow of blood but it is also highly ineffectual at being a reliable method of birth control even when held between the knees of a willing female... there are more ways to deal with a challenge than a short membered frontal approach... a long reaching end around play will defeat the aspirins effectiveness quite readily... :)

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sorry there, Depends... but i thought my explanation was plain enough to understand... please excuse the hell out of me for trying to pass along any information not deemed appropriate by you as being fit for this forum without some sort of ridicule being attached by some self appointed overlord... to extrapolate further upon your analogy: not only will aspirin not staunch the flow of blood but it is also highly ineffectual at being a reliable method of birth control even when held between the knees of a willing female... there are more ways to deal with a challenge than a short membered frontal approach... a long reaching end around play will defeat the aspirins effectiveness quite readily...
:)

 

Have to step in here for DeepEnd. He is absolutely right. A bridge doctor can do magic for a high action due to bellying, but nothing in terms of neck angle issues.

Using a bridge doctor to fight neck angle is like doing an oil change when you have a flat tyre. Won''t hurt, will do the car good, will be needed sometime, but does not deal with the original issue.

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When the belly goes up, the neck angle goes down, and the action goes up.

 

ts0146bellyupB.gif

 

It's often made worse by the neck sinking into the sound hole.

 

Bottom line: a neck reset rarely has anything to do with the neck changing. It's the top that gets deformed, leading to the need for a neck reset.

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What's your definition of neck angle? The angle of interest is how the top of the frets intersects the bridge at the saddle location. That angle drops when the belly rises. It drops even more when the neck block rotates into the sound hole.

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i dont believe i led anyone to believe otherwise? i simply gave an example of one reason many people get a neck reset... due to BELLYING of the soundboard... and offered a cheap and very effective solution... jesus, did i kill someone or what? to hell with it... have fun boys... :wave:

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If you reset the neck due to a bellying, you adress the symptoms, but not the cause.

If you shave the bridge due to a top sinking , you do not adress the cause.

If your top bellies, it's more effective and better for the guitar to adress that rather than ignore it and change the neck angle.

Shaving the bridge is almost never adressing the cause. It is, though, a way to deal with issues if your guitar isn't worth the proper repair.

So, if your neck angle changes in relation to the top (i.e. top sinking), reset the neck. If your top bellies, employ a bridge doctor.

Just my opinion, obviously.... and no attempt to kill anyone. Just stating my opinion.

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...I wouldn't suggest doing this to a fine instrument that's been built to accomodate a neck reset. But this is a really quick fix for a $50 Yamaha with an epoxyed neck.

;) All I'm talking about is keeping cheap guitars out of the dumpster. Bridge Doctor isn't on the menu in these cases, but is a good option for a decent guitar.

 

I realise that one day they'll get bad again, but once you get the action low on them they fold less. I've never seen one continue folding past where my little cheat works.

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Assuming that an incorrect angle of the neck versus the body is indeed causing high action, shaving the bridge is a perfectly acceptable fix, on a cheap guitar that you wouldn't consider spending the requisite $400+ to try to reset the neck on.

 

Shaving the bridge on any guitar of significant value is damn foolishness, regardless of what Gitboob says.

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Shaving the bridge on any guitar of significant value is damn foolishness, regardless of what Gitboob says.

 

 

I happen to agree totally with this. We have argued it before, others feel that shaving the bridge is not only OK but can improve the tone - I don't. I did once a long time ago slightly shave the bridge on an Ovation that I was setting up to be a gift - there was simply no other choice. However, even on a cheap guitar with a glued on neck, there is a relatively easy way to saw cut the neck and reset it - a recent thread shows how.

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Such a hot-button issue for some people. :)

 

The reality is that when Martin builds a guitar, they have a bunch of different height bridges to choose from. They pick the one that gives the best neck angle. No different than shaving the bridge to adjust the neck angle.

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Such a hot-button issue for some people.
:)

The reality is that when Martin builds a guitar, they have a bunch of different height bridges to choose from. They pick the one that gives the best neck angle. No different than shaving the bridge to adjust the neck angle.

 

'Noob, Martin rep and authorized repairman Rich Starkey was in town the other day. He looked at my old Martins and discussed them - both have had resets. I asked if he would ever shave the bridge on a Martin guitar. He said "never" I consider him an authority on Martin guitars. You I don't think have quite the same credentials.

 

Please find me one authorized Martin repairman who would shave a bridge and post something here that confirms that. If you can, I'll shut up. If you can't I would ask why you keep insisting that it is the correct repair for any guitar.

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FK, didn't you already ask me to start a thread over at UMGF about this? I don't recall all of the responses, but I don't recall any that contradicted me.

 

There is nothing sacred about bridges or bridge height. Martin's not very particular about it when they build, so why should it be an "incorrect" repair to shave them?

 

It is possible for a bridge to be too shallow. That's when they become vulnerable to cracking. Koiwoi's suggested "ramping" would be even better than shaving in that regard.

 

Of course, any repair that affects resale value is "incorrect" in terms of value. That's generally the only reason to avoid shaving. Frankly, I would find it odd if a "chop off the neck" repair didn't devalue an instrument more than shaving the bridge.

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FK, didn't you already ask me to start a thread over at UMGF about this? I don't recall all of the responses, but I don't recall any that contradicted me.


 

 

I greatly appreciated your starting that thread and I tried my darnest to stay out of it, however I watched with interest. Two things happened - you asked if there was an optimum height and mass for a bridge, which most people felt was a function of the rest of the guitar design, so it could be modified on a custom built guitar to suit. I don't disagree with that at all - I know first hand the effect of bridgeplate mass.

 

The second was, is it valid to shave the bridge to try to optimize the tone? Again, I think the answer was - yes, in theory.

 

A third subject popped up, is there an optimum break angle for the strings behind the bridge. There was more discussion here with varioud vector diagrams and Carruth saying that his tests indicated that it didn't matter but he wasn't ready to publish them. That lead to your tests which I think are interesting but still incomplete.

 

I jumped in and asked specifically if anyone would shave a bridge on an old Martin - for whatever reason. I was surprised that no one responded yes or no. One forumite even repeated the question, but again, I think by then the thread was so much into the vector stuff that only a few people were left. My question remained unanswered.

 

I don't know about Martin using different height bridges on new guitars - I have always heard that they were 3/8 tall. I have seen videos of Martin employees setting necks - they do it just like you and I (largely by hand) to a premeasured location on the top. They may or may not tweak that by selecting different bridges - that you seem to know but I don't. I'm pretty sure they don't do it to optimize the sound.

 

Because you and I don't agree on this subject, I thought I would ask Starkey. His answer was very clear. I will accept his authority, not yours, until you can present someone with credentials who says that shaving a bridge on a Martin guitar is acceptable substitute for a reset. Ball is in your court.

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My goal is not to change anybody's mind. I just enjoy shining light on subjects to watch the cockroaches scatter. :)

 

I don't know if Martin still adjusts neck angle via bridge height. CNC may have made their neck sets more accurate. But they definitely did at one time. Larrivee still does. Taylor does not -- that's one of the advantages of their bolt-on necks and shims -- they can get a more consistent neck angle than the other guys.

 

Do you have any vintage small-body Martins? They used to taper the top of the bridge -- the bass side is higher than the treble side. Not sure why they stopped doing that -- it makes sense in terms of exposed saddle for a given action.

 

I suppose you could get the same result with modern Martins, but you'd have to shave the bridge. :)

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