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Wraparound bridge upgrade options?


KevinTJH

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The stock wraparound bridge on my Acrylic electric guitar is a piece of garbage.

 

I've lowered the bridge as low as it can get and the action is still ridiculously too high for my liking. I personally like the action fairly low on all my guitars. I've moved the saddles as far as they can get but just cannot seem to intonate this guitar properly.

 

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What are some good options out there that are fairly inexpensive? I've tried the Wilkinson wraparound before on my Gibson LP Jr, which worked better than the stock but still never intonated perfectly.

 

I know I probably have a lot to learn about setting up guitars professionally before pointing fingers at my bridge, but I don't think anything but a new bridge can fix the action issue.

 

My biggest concern is that the new bridge may not fit into the holes. Are all wraparound bridges in the market universally "standard-sized"?

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I am assuming the intonation is sharp? Use the screws to pull the bridge back a bit further. (That's why they are there.) Action could be adjusted 2 ways: 1) Using a small file, file down the slots on the saddles. Work slowly, cleaning as you go. 2) Shim the neck.

 

As for a replacement bridge. Wilkenson is the more affordable option. I use one on my Ibanez JS700, and it's worth the 30 bucks or so I paid for it on feebay. Intonation is spot on, same with the action. Another option is the TonePros. Personally, not a fan. (I have one on my Eastman el rey 3.) Others rave about them, but I am not in that camp. I don't like needing a special tool to lower the action.

 

If I remember correctly, this was a guitar "given" to as a promo thing? Why not take it back, and explain the issues?

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When you bought the guitar was it intonated? What have you done since you bought it? You have the bridge adjusted to such an extreme that it's flopping up and forward. Because it's so jacked up it appears to me that the bridge mounting holes were drilled at the wrong distance from the nut unless you made a giant change in string gauge. While the screws at each post are there to adjust the bridge there should be only a minor adjustment. It can be shimmed to flatten it out and bring the action down but IMO I would just return the guitar.

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There are two completely separate things going on here, one involves the action, one the intonation. Remember that action affects intonation, intonation does not affect action.

 

As always, I would like to hear some accurate measurements before you turn any screw. I want to know all of the setup parameters - relief, action at the 12th fret on at least the high and low E strings, the amount the bridge height adjusting studs are turned up from their lowest position. I would like to see a straightedge sitting on the frets between the 3rd and 4th strings and the measurement off the top of the guitar right in front of the bridge.

 

Second, I would like a measurement from the nut to the center of the 12th fret, from the nut to the centers of the studs and from the nut to the high and low E saddles. I would like to know how many cents the E strings are off when fretted at the 12th fret (and whether sharp or flat, but I'll assume they are sharp). Gauge of strings would be helpful

 

I'm not sure that replacing the bridge is going to gain anything but lets hear the measurements first. And please make them as accurate as possible - to the nearest 32nd would be good.

 

edit to add, from your pictures I can't tell if that has a set neck or screwed on. If screwed on before you go any farther you need to get the geometry correct. Make sure the screws are tight and that there is no gap at the heel. You may find it necessary to shim the pocket to get the angle and overstand correct.

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What you need are neck shims to get the neck angle right so you can raise the bridge. I used one of these pre cut Stuart McDonald type on my last build which are wedge shaped. You could make your own too. Judging by your photos it looks like you'll need more then 1%, more likely 2% or even 2.5% by the time you get the strings lowered and the bridge height raised to a normal height. You don't want to go too far or you'll have pickup height problems.

 

https://www.stewmac.com/SiteSearch/?search=neck%20shim%20for%20stratocaster

 

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Thanks for the responses guys. I got given this guitar as a gift because I thought it looked cool, knowing well it wouldn't compare to a high end guitar. My plan was to either do a bit of practice setup on it, or just have it as a wall decoration. So I am not returning this guitar under any circumstance since I didn't pay a cent for it.

 

To be perfectly honest, I've accidentally stripped one of the bridge screws, which makes it even worse to work with now. So I'm pretty eager to get a new bridge either way anyway.

 

I'm not too confident with shimming myself so I'll keep that as a last resort if possible.

 

No dramatic string gauge changes. Original set was a 9-42 in Standard, and I've now got 10-52 in Drop C.

 

 

As always, I would like to hear some accurate measurements before you turn any screw. I want to know all of the setup parameters - relief, action at the 12th fret on at least the high and low E strings, the amount the bridge height adjusting studs are turned up from their lowest position. I would like to see a straightedge sitting on the frets between the 3rd and 4th strings and the measurement off the top of the guitar right in front of the bridge.

 

Second, I would like a measurement from the nut to the center of the 12th fret, from the nut to the centers of the studs and from the nut to the high and low E saddles. I would like to know how many cents the E strings are off when fretted at the 12th fret (and whether sharp or flat, but I'll assume they are sharp). Gauge of strings would be helpful

 

I'm not sure that replacing the bridge is going to gain anything but lets hear the measurements first. And please make them as accurate as possible - to the nearest 32nd would be good.

 

edit to add, from your pictures I can't tell if that has a set neck or screwed on. If screwed on before you go any farther you need to get the geometry correct. Make sure the screws are tight and that there is no gap at the heel. You may find it necessary to shim the pocket to get the angle and overstand correct.

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Measurements from the furthest saddle (6th string):

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Yes, the strings are all sharp on the 12th fret. 1st string is a .10 tuned to a D, and 6th string is a .52 tuned to a C.

 

When you bought the guitar was it intonated? What have you done since you bought it? You have the bridge adjusted to such an extreme that it's flopping up and forward. Because it's so jacked up it appears to me that the bridge mounting holes were drilled at the wrong distance from the nut unless you made a giant change in string gauge. While the screws at each post are there to adjust the bridge there should be only a minor adjustment. It can be shimmed to flatten it out and bring the action down but IMO I would just return the guitar.

The only thing I've done to it straight out of the box was replace the stock humbucker with an EMG H4 and the EMG pots that came with the pickup.

 

Yes! That's the exact same one (but in black) that I used for my previous Gibby Les Paul Jr. Are there any major disadvantages to not having individual adjustable saddles?

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I had no issues getting it intonated.

And shimming a neck can be child's play. Loosen the strings, remove the 4 screws for the neck, take a thin piece of cardboard (Match book cover is traditional Fender tech from the 50's), fold it in half, put it at the very heel of the neck pock to about where the screws go, reassemble. If it's too high, or not high enough, redo. Once you have the neck right, then you can order the appropriate Stew mac one. Or leave it. I took apart a 56 strat to properly date it, and there was a match book cover as the shim.

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I'm not too confident with shimming myself so I'll keep that as a last resort if possible.

 

 

OK Kevin, you are getting lots of different suggestions, some of them I agree with. However I have a set way of doing things and I'm happy to talk you thru them, but I do them in a certain order for reasons. The first is to determine if the geometry of the guitar is correct. From looking at your pictures, either the geometry is not correct or someone has screwed with so many things that you've lost your starting point.

 

I asked you for a whole series of measurements, you gave me two (actually, you gave me pictures which means I have to figure out exactly how you are doing the measuring). Determining if the neck angle is correct and fixing it if it isn't, is the very first part of doing the rest of the setup - if you are not comfortable doing that then please find someone who is. I'm also a bit concerned when someone tells me the accidently stripped a screw - that tells me you are forcing something that doesn't need to be.

 

I'm going to sit back and watch - if you decide you want to follow my suggestions please stop and make the measurements. Otherwise, good luck.

 

. Are there any major disadvantages to not having individual adjustable saddles?

 

Only how accurately you feel your intonation needs to be set. Note that odd ball tunings and/or string gauges will affect the amount of compensation required to get it to play in tune.

 

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Short answer: The neck is installed incorrectly. If the guitar won't intonate with the amount of compensation I see, it's because either the bridge is in the wrong place or the neck is installed incorrectly. You need the 12th fret to be further from the bridge. A qualified shop can remove the neck, fill the holes, and reinstall the neck slightly further from the end of the pocket. Preferable cosmetically to reinstalling the bridge since you won't see the filled holes from the front. While they're at it they can replace the stripped screw and do a proper setup, including intonation with your preferred strings and tuning. The bridge can be moved back to a normal position and the tendency for it to tilt will be reduced. FWIW, I had the same issue to a lesser degree with a Fernandes Strat. The low E wouldn't intonate and I finally got rid of it rather than sink more money into it.

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^^^ Actually the neck was likely OK until that bridge was installed.

 

The instrument likely had one of these -

 

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And someone installed one of these without measuring how much higher it was.

 

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Its obvious what the problem is, the bridge is much higher and if you want to keep that bridge on there, you have to tilt the neck angle back to lower the strings.

 

There's another obvious tell tale sign of a problem. Look at the saddles and see how far the bridge is extended towards the tail. When strings are that high that will bend sharp trying to fret them. You may get the 12th fret intonated but the frets above the 12th will be horribly sharp trying to get that basket case in tune.

 

This is the problem when you modify a guitar and fail to first make sure the replacement part is a straight drop in or whether other things need to be done to make it work.

 

 

Like I said, you want to use that bridge you have to tilt the neck back. Period. Or you could try and find a bridge with shallow saddles. I saw this one and it's recesses saddles look to be much lower.

 

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Or you could use something like this. The high and low strings are intonated by the post screws and the center strings have adjustable tabs.

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I just finished building a guitar with a wrap around bridge. I chose a fixed bridge myself. the whole idea is to get incredible sustain and getting the guitar to intonate was no problem at all simply tweaking the two end tilt screws. I have plenty of guitars with TOM bridges and know very well how they sound. I could have gone with a Tom and Tail on this one but the whole idea was to get that classic LP Junior sustain.

 

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^^^ Actually the neck was likely OK until that bridge was installed. . . .

Wow. So the bridge made the neck move. Who would've thought? Seriously, there's no proof the bridge was replaced. Check eBay and you'll see plenty of acrylic guitars with that same bridge. If you look at the pics in post #1, the string height wouldn't be halfway bad if the bridge weren't tilted. It's tilted because it's so far back the posts can't hold it level. It's not that way because someone replaced it. Shimming the neck won't correct the underlying geometry. Only moving either the neck or bridge will.

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Kevin, you are getting a lot of very interesting suggestions - which one are you going to try? Do you feel confident and competent to do the work? Let me make you a stupid crazy offer:

 

- box up your guitar and ship it to me. There are good tutorials on the web about how to pack it - fitted hardshell case in a fitted box. Insure it for its value and include pre paid return shipping. UPS, FedEx, USPS all work and from Somewhere USA to Somewhere Else USA usually runs 30 or 35 bucks

 

- I will do my usual Sick Guitar tests and measurements and share the results with you and the forum. IF the guitar seems to be structurally damaged (S) or has bad geometry (G) I will advise you if I feel it was that way from the factory (and under warranty) or if it got that way somehow. If I feel that I can fix it I will give you an estimate. If fret work (F) is required I will also give you an estimate to do that work (those three things have to be perfect before I will do a setup).

 

- if SGF is good and/or once I fix them, I will set the action and intonation on your guitar to your specifications at no cost. If I cannot achieve your specifications I will get as close as possible and explain why. One critical part of this is that I want to know the tuning you will be using and I will calculate string gauges that match the manufactures designed tension for your tuning. Also note that if the frets are not perfect, action height will be compromised.

 

If you do not have a preferred action other than "fairly low" I will suggest values that have worked for other players. Intonation will be set +/- 3 cents which is within the limits of human hearing. If nut slots require work I will bill you for that, relief, action and intonation are free. If the manufacturer specifics action values I will discuss them with you - frequently mine will be tighter.

 

- I will attempt to use your bridge if possible. I can replace a screw if it is stripped, if the bridge is stripped I can drill and tap it for the next oversize metric or SAE screw. If I feel the bridge is not usable I will make suggestion and, if you agree, replace it. I may also suggest locking tuner posts since wrap around bridges are subject to so much rotational torque that standard posts don't work very well. I have a high standard for parts - if I wouldn't put it on my guitar I won't put it on yours.

 

I buy parts from three or four domestic guitar parts suppliers - I don't use Amazon or e-bay. I will pass along all parts to you at MSRP or published list price plus S&H - in other words I will charge you the same thing you would pay if you were buy from that source.

 

I will ship the guitar back to you with new strings (usually D'Addario's - if you want something else I will have to order them). I usually trash a set of strings during setup so plan for two sets. As I said above, strings will be selected to give the same tension as a stock set at concert tuning.

 

- I won't do any electronics work other than adjusting the height of the pickups. If you want electronics work I can invoice for parts and labor.

 

- I'll post a documentary on HCEG and listen to any comments by forumites, but frankly I'll probably ignore them. I'll treat this as tho you were bringing the guitar to me for repair and setup and trust that I know what I'm doing.

 

- I'll try to turn the guitar around in two weeks after it arrives however if I have to order parts that will add to the time.

 

- I will provide you with an estimate of any billable work (SGF) however I will invoice you for the actual hours not to exceed the estimate. My labor rate is $50/hr for this project and I round to the nearest half hour. Parts will be estimated and billed as above (list). There is no cost for the evaluation.

 

- I reserve the right to not do this work if (1) the guitar is obviously damaged from the factory, (2) abused or damaged by someone who obviously did know what he or she was doing, or (3) the information that you have provided above is not accurate.

 

So, basically, I'm offering to fix things that are wrong with your guitar for a reasonable price and do the setup and intonation adjustment for free.

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Kevin, you are getting a lot of very interesting suggestions - which one are you going to try? Do you feel confident and competent to do the work? Let me make you a stupid crazy offer:

Wow, Freeman! That's definitely really kind of you to offer. For the years I've been on this forum, you have been offering very elaborative advice so you are definitely one of my most respected members in this community.

Just for future reference, where are you located?

I have been slow to respond on this thread because there is so much advice to read up on that I am still trying to process.

 

Apart from this guitar not being anything close to high-end, I don't believe there is any factory defect with it as I personally handpicked this one out of the few that arrived in Australia that were all consistently the same. If anything, it would be more of a design fault.

Interestingly, if you google Ampeg Dan Armstrong Acrylic guitar (my guitar is a copy of that), you will find that the wraparound bridge is also ridiculously close to the pickup. For the Ampeg to sell for over $2k, surely it must be somewhat decent?

 

I really appreciate the offer, Freeman, but this guitar is purely just a fun guitar to add to my collection. I would never gig with nor record with this guitar. For other guitars that I actually value more, I would definitely love to take it to you one day for a thorough inspection.

For guitars that I actually take to the recording studio with me, I actually invest hundreds into getting it plek'd, and setup properly by a professional.

 

 

It's a little off-topic but here's a quick example of how low I like my action to be for guitars I record with - my custom-built 26.5" scale 7 string tuned to Drop G#. The action is low that it buzzes on some frets slightly, but it's slight enough that it can't be heard once the guitar is plugged in to an amp.

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Wow. So the bridge made the neck move. Who would've thought? Seriously, there's no proof the bridge was replaced. Check eBay and you'll see plenty of acrylic guitars with that same bridge. If you look at the pics in post #1, the string height wouldn't be halfway bad if the bridge weren't tilted. It's tilted because it's so far back the posts can't hold it level. It's not that way because someone replaced it. Shimming the neck won't correct the underlying geometry. Only moving either the neck or bridge will.

 

Don't be an idiot. The guitar was designed for a standard wrap around bridge which is lower. An adjustable bridge which is much higher was put on there instead.

 

I have a Plexiglas V and by looking at the build, its likely made by the same Chinese company. It was instantly obvious when I got the guitar the people who made it were not only unskilled workers, they weren't even musicians.

 

The neck and body weren't bad but they did some incredibly stupid things to it when building it and used some ultra cheap parts. I didn't buy the guitar for $89 expecting perfection and expected I'd have to do work on it.

 

There's no way it was even tested because it was completely unplayable. The pickups were so badly built, the instrument could never work. The bobbins were made of untreated paper. They wound 3' of unshielded wire in the cavity too. The saddles had no notches, The nut had cracks in it. The pots were all wired wrong and the output jack wasn't even connected.

 

Luckily, like I said, the neck and body were actually pretty good and the other problems were superficial. New pickups, rewiring took care of the sound. Changed the cracked nut and eventually found a decent metric bridge that would fit it and it plays fine.

 

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Wow, Freeman! That's definitely really kind of you to offer. For the years I've been on this forum, you have been offering very elaborative advice so you are definitely one of my most respected members in this community.

Just for future reference, where are you located?

I have been slow to respond on this thread because there is so much advice to read up on that I am still trying to process.

 

 

I didn't know if this would appeal to you or not, or even if it was feasible, I know it would be expensive to ship it here but frankly I get so PO'd listening to all the BS here from people who have been giving you contradictory advice that I had to offer. I'm in a small town in Washington State, I can PM you my shipping address if you want to see what it would cost to ship it here. However if you are in Australia then it doesn't make any sense (well, let me think about that, I could bring my tools and meet you in Melbourne....)

 

I frankly can't tell what is wrong with it from the pictures but its obvious that something is. I figured that if I had it in front of me I could go thru the normal diagnosis and still try to minimize the cost to you. I'm still willing to work with you over the forum but as I said before, I need some very accurate measurements, which I can walk you thru.

 

Offer stands, I think it would be interesting and we all could learn something.

 

 

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Don't be an idiot. The guitar was designed for a standard wrap around bridge which is lower. An adjustable bridge which is much higher was put on there instead. . . .

I'm not the one being an idiot (your word, BTW, so don't get offended). You said:

^^^ Actually the neck was likely OK until that bridge was installed. . . .

That implies a cause/effect relationship. The neck position was fine until the bridge was installed, which means the bridge caused the neck to move. That's what you said. Either your logic is faulty or your ability to express yourself.

 

You went on to say:

. . . The instrument likely had one of these -

 

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And someone installed one of these without measuring how much higher it was.

 

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This is based on no evidence whatsoever. The OP clearly said it's "the stock wraparound bridge" (see post #1) and mentioned that he compared multiple guitars (see post #18). Here's an example from eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Factory-Top...-/282530498000. I want you to take a very good look at the bridge. Look familiar? It should because it's the same bridge that's on the OP's guitar.

 

The guitar's geometry is clearly out of whack. You can solve the problem in one of two ways: A. Move the bridge. B. Move the neck. IMHO, it's easier and better cosmetically to remount the neck. You can certainly approach the problem differently but lowering the bridge won't do it. Tilting the neck won't do it either because it won't appreciably change the distance between the nut and bridge. You should know that but apparently you don't. At this point I can't help you.

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^^^^ You fail to understand the cause of the problem and therefore you fail to understand why I made theses statements.

 

I don't care whether it was the owner who changes the bridge or whether it was a pathetically stupid decision made by the people building the guitar. The fact is that's NOT the original bridge for the design. Its obviously too high and whoever decided to use it didn't check the height specs. Period.

 

I'd also say I know a bit more then you do about the company who builds these Plexiglas guitars because I actually own one.

Based on the pathetically stupid stuff they did building mine, and the issues the OP has with this one It is clear as day to me they are still making stupid mistakes.

 

Those adjustable wrap around bridges made in china are relatively new. They likely added that bridge to get sales - No more no less.

Its obvious it does fit the instrument and its blatantly obvious they did nothing to modify the instrument to make it work.

 

Problem is these Plexiglas guitars are built from a plastic mold. They got those plastic molds from copying other wooden guitars.

 

If they want to fix their problem there is two solutions. Redesign their mold to have more neck tilt. or add a shim.

I doubt they will do based on what I've seen this company make. They are as clueless as you are when it comes to building instruments.

 

This is nothing new on these acrylic guitars. Here's a few comments made by others.

 

yea avoid the cheap carp.

 

Had a MIC plexi gtr 7 yrs ago where the neck pocket and bridge had misalignment issues that were much

beyond the ol' 'shift the neck in the pocket' alignment trick, and other issues.

 

So the pocket strength becomes solely the thickness of the body sandwiched between the neck and chrome bolt plate. The neck tongue is more than half the body thickenss so the remaining body thickness is too thin. The hole routed for the neck pickup is WAY too deep for the thin cheap humbuckers. The cutaways are big. It leaves insufficient body strength at the neck pocket. It's the only guitar I've ever owned where the body bends too much to keep a stable note when moved around. So in selecting an acrylic guitar, pay attention to the body strength at the neck heel pocket.

 

This guy agrees with me Low skilled, no skilled labor building these.

 

It was not designed or made by a Luther of instruments I can't think of anything good to say about this item

 

Just junk. Bad hardware.

 

BOUGHT ONE AND RETURNED IT. IT WAS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO INTONATE OR TUNE.
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. . . you fail to understand why I made theses statements. . . .

 

. . . I'd also say I know a bit more then you do about the company who builds these Plexiglas guitars because I actually own one. . . .

 

. . . They are as clueless as you are when it comes to building instruments.

Translation:

I own a V copy and therefore I know all about a Dan Armstrong copy because they're identical.

Except they aren't. That should be obvious but it clearly isn't in your case. Once again, look at the pics in post #1. The bridge is about as far back as it will go, and tilted, causing the action to be higher than it should be. Even with high action the strings are maybe 1/8" above the pickup. It could be better but it could be much worse. Crank the screws down a bit and there's a possibility the bridge will level out, bringing the action down. If not, a different bridge couldn't hurt but it won't correct the basic geometry caused by incorrect placement of the bridge and nut. Correct the geometry first, then worry about the bridge.

 

I know exactly why you make these statements: You're used to making assumptions. You seem to have forgotten that I've actually owned a guitar with bad geometry, so I know the symptoms. It didn't have high action and the bridge was a standard Strat style trem. I still couldn't intonate the low E because the basic geometry was off, and I got rid of the guitar rather than spend any more effort or money. I currently own a beater acoustic with the same issue.

 

Finally, I'd ask you to please elevate the tone of the discussion. Recall that I'm not the one using words like "idiot" and "clueless" because you don't agree with me. That's uncalled-for and I won't stoop to your level unless you make it necessary.

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