Pine Fretboard

[gardo]

Ibanez AX series looks like a lot of bang for the buck. But treated New Zealand Pine fretboards? I'm sure they've tested this but it doesn't seem very durable. Any thoughts ?.

[Freeman Keller]

My thought is that I don't want to think about it.

[DeepEnd]

NZ pine appears to be similar to Radiata Pine, which would give it a janka hardness of 710 lbs., in the same ballpark with silver maple at 700 lbs. That's the low end for maple, with sugar maple coming in at 1450 lbs. and other species falling in between. In comparison, Indian rosewood has a janka hardness of 3170 lbs. I'd want to know a whole lot more before I spent my money.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I wonder how they're "treating" it?

[mrbrown49]

http://www.hutchinsguitars.com/about-us/why-blackwood-tec.html

its basically impregneted with a resin to harden it.

[Grant Harding]

Seems like a good idea to me. Pinus radiata is really fast growing and sustainable. Bring it on!

[mrbrown49]

Seems like a good idea to me. Pinus radiata is really fast growing and sustainable. Bring it on!

 

I agree. Sounds a lot like making stuff from bamboo.

 

wasnt there a bamboo guitar company? I dont recall if they were doing the necks out of bamboo, or just the bodies.

[gardo]

http://www.hutchinsguitars.com/about-us/why-blackwood-tec.html

its basically impregneted with a resin to harden it.

 

interesting,this sounds like a great idea

[guitarcapo]

Given that a typical guitar lasts decades and a single rosewood logs can yield hundreds of fretboards I can imagine a lot more practical ways to save forest land than going after the guitar builders and resorting to crap wood. Bob Taylor noticed that only 5% of ebony lumber is uniformly black enough to be used for fingerboards. Eureka moment: Dye the wood or leave it streaked. Either sounds better than using crap and our forests just increased their yield 10x.

[Grant Harding]

So you've tried these "crap wood" fretboards that you hate so much? I mean you must have, right?

[Phil O'Keefe]

http://www.hutchinsguitars.com/about...kwood-tec.html

its basically impregneted with a resin to harden it.

 

Well, Richlite is basically similar, except I think they use a paper pulp with the resin... but while I'm normally suspicious of non-traditional materials, I have to say I was really surprised by Richlite. I reviewed a Gibson ES-275 with a Richlite board and initially I didn't give it a second thought - I just assumed it was ebony until one day I looked at it closely and realized there was no grain in it. Outside of that clue, or reading it in the specs, I probably never would have known the difference - it looks very similar to, and sounds and feels identical to ebony IMO.

 

[mrbrown49]

 

Well, Richlite is basically similar, except I think they use a paper pulp with the resin... but while I'm normally suspicious of non-traditional materials, I have to say I was really surprised by Richlite. I reviewed a Gibson ES-275 with a Richlite board and initially I didn't give it a second thought - I just assumed it was ebony until one day I looked at it closely and realized there was no grain in it. Outside of that clue, or reading it in the specs, I probably never would have known the difference - it looks very similar to, and sounds and feels identical to ebony IMO.

 

I was the same way about bamboo cutting boards, very skeptical at first. Not the same thing at all I know, but I have a few of those now and they are holding up better than my wood ones.

[Grant Harding]

Given that a typical guitar lasts decades and a single rosewood logs can yield hundreds of fretboards I can imagine a lot more practical ways to save forest land than going after the guitar builders and resorting to crap wood. Bob Taylor noticed that only 5% of ebony lumber is uniformly black enough to be used for fingerboards. Eureka moment: Dye the wood or leave it streaked. Either sounds better than using crap and our forests just increased their yield 10x.

How does this hamper other ways to save the forests again? You still haven't said why you claim it's crap wood.

 

[Danocoustic]

At first read, I'm leery---I mean, PINE? But then again, technology has come a long way. I'll try to keep an open mind until I actually play one.

 

Traditional woods are great, but many of them are threatened/endangered these days. We need to develop practical alternatives.

[WRGKMC]

Pine is a fast grown wood. Its a stringy grained wood consisting of uneven layers of soft pulp and thin bark layers which are very hard. When cutting or drilling it can be very easy to fractured. Trying to sand the end of the grain to get it smooth can be very difficult. The wood tends to get more brittle as it cures and can be easily dented in the areas containing the softer pulp. I mostly use it for cabinets where the wood is covered by Tolex.

 

I have tried making a few bodies out of pine. Not exactly a great tone wood. Too soft and vibrations die away quickly due to the soft pulp layers. If the pine is antique, aged for many years it can sound much better if you get a nicely grained chunk of it. Many pieces can be loaded with knots which make construction difficult. The wood will soak up huge amounts of chemicals like stains or primer before it seals.

 

As far as using it as fretboard wood, I'd have to question the wood being consistent simply because of the variations in grain are so great. I can see it being one of the easiest woods to impregnate with glues given the amount of soft pulp. After that it's no more then a chunk of plastic with all those resins embedded. I'd think Cedar would be a better choice for consistency. It too can be a soft pulped wood but it tends to sound pretty good on acoustic guitars plus it has some excellent grains to it which could look fabulous on a fret board. They would need to use clear epoxies to retain its look.

[DeepEnd]

Well' date=' Richlite is basically similar, except I think they use a paper pulp with the resin... but while I'm normally suspicious of non-traditional materials, I have to say I was really surprised by Richlite. I reviewed a Gibson ES-275 with a Richlite board and initially I didn't give it a second thought - I just assumed it was ebony until one day I looked at it closely and realized there was no grain in it. Outside of that clue, or reading it in the specs, I probably never would have known the difference - it looks very similar to, and sounds and feels identical to ebony IMO.

Same as my experience with a few Martins I've played. Until I read the specs it didn't make a difference. BTW, Richlite is layers of recycled paper bonded together with resin. The stuff under discussion is actual wood that's apparently been injected with resin. It should be as durable as Richlite/Formica.

[DeepEnd]

All of which applies to untreated pine but not to the stuff being discussed.

[WRGKMC]

In realize that. Its a process of forcing the wood to suck up organic resin, derivate from agricultural waste(whatever that's is - Vegetable oils?) then heating and compressing the wood. Sounds like its a matter of converting the wood into a French Fry. The wood still retains its grain which is my main concern.

 

If you've ever cut fret slots there's a reason why hard woods work well. I'd also question how well the frets grip the fret slots. Typically the tangs press into the slot and the wood expands back into place so they don't pop up or fall out. Organic or otherwise I'd want to know more about this organic resin they use.

 

They say it resists moisture heat etc, but how long has it been in use. Where's the track record? One think I do know about woods is how they react to the elements long term. A guitar neck is constantly exposed to moisture and acids, salts from of the hands. If the resins break down, does the wood swell back up to its original size?

 

Particle board and plywood are made with water proof glues. Apply moisture long enough it does fall apart. Wood shrinks and contracts. Resins which are flexible will move as the wood does. Hard resins crack as the wood expands and contracts.

 

The thing is, I don't know how it holds up long term, I don't know how it handles string truss tensions, and most importantly I don't know if it even sounds good. If It holds frets properly and it passes all these other tests then I have no problem with it. I'd likely pass on it if I were investing in a high end guitar. If I spend a couple of grand on an instrument I'd want to be sure it could be passed down to my kids and grand kids and become a classic instrument, not a classic basket case.

[mikesr1963]

When I hear the word guitar and pine in the context of building guitars it's not something that makes me warm and fuzzy for certain. Eastern US white pine has a 380 Janka rating. Compared to rosewood even that NZ pine sounds really week. I can't help but think it will be junk.

[DeepEnd]

When I hear the word guitar and pine in the context of building guitars it's not something that makes me warm and fuzzy for certain. Eastern US white pine has a 380 Janka rating. Compared to rosewood even that NZ pine sounds really week. I can't help but think it will be junk.

NZ pine is around 710 in janka hardness. Furthermore, that's for untreated wood. The "junk" is in the execution. I prefer to wait for more facts. You're welcome to form your own conclusions.

[Grant Harding]

Haters are gonna hate. The facts are irrelevant apparently.

[Grant Harding]

The key words are "I don't know" which negates the other part of the novel.

[DeepEnd]

You're right about that, at least for some of us. I still prefer old fashioned facts.

[mikesr1963]

NZ pine is around 710 in janka hardness. Furthermore, that's for untreated wood. The "junk" is in the execution. I prefer to wait for more facts. You're welcome to form your own conclusions.

 

Indian Rosewood is rated at 3170 and this NZ pine is less than a 1000. I've scalloped rosewood fretboards and maple fretboards so regardless of the ratings I have feel for exactly how hard those woods are from shaping and forming them. One can think what they wish but I'm not spending money on a neck that's rated that soft. And thank you, I have formed my own conclusions and I'm going to stick with what I know is good and already like.

[Grant Harding]

You're comparing untreated pine instead of the stuff this thread is about.